US Response to Sealion

[UltimateChaos]

If Germany decides to go Sealion the US often responds by building some sort of fleet in the Atlantic. However this usually leads to success in the Pacific as American IPCs are not being being used there. My question is would it make sense for America to not respond to Sealion in the Atlantic at all? It seems as though Germany could be contained by Russia after Sealion and America is desperately needed to stop Japan. Thoughts?

[A Former User]

Dear Steelers7,

Very good thought process. I would disagree, and lean towards the U.S. using the majority of its power against the European Axis. In my opinion, Sealion is a move which can actually weaken the Germans more than it may strengthen them, especially because of how much more powerful it makes Russia-not to mention the losses Germany can take from the amphibious/air assault.
    This makes thing better for America to go into Europe, because a key part of Axis and Allies-I think, at least-is putting more pressure on the weakest parts of the enemy rather than going into more of a “fair fight” against their stronger points. After Sealion, America and Russia have the opportunity to conduct a very dangerous-for the Germans-offensive from West and East, respectively. Japan’s progress should not be enough to counter this, I think. Just like in Original, 1941, 1942, and Global, the ability of the Allies to crush Germany in a multi-front war seems to be key, even if Japan gets dangerously close to the verge of winning in the meantime. See Donray’s essays online(he wrote some brilliant strategy for Original that is still applicable in some ways to Global 1940.)

Thank and God Bless you from,
-AxisandAlliesGeneral

[Caesar-Seriona]

I disagree. I think USSR is always forbidden from entering the war until turn 4 so if Germany pulls a Sealion on three, it can then take its remaining Sealion force with those transports and move then to weaken USSR even more so. So it makes sense for US to put pressure on Germany due to them now successfully choking out France AND UK leaving them and Italy as the dominate power in their region. USSR can fall to German but with them having no western front and Italy having it easier in Africa, US is the only remaining power to even the odds for USSR who already faced impossible odds.

[Gargantua]

As soon as London falls, USSR and USA are automatically at war with the axis.

Unless of course you own a copy of first edition, where that rule didnt exist yet.

[Maddog77]

@Caesar:

I disagree. I think USSR is always forbidden from entering the war until turn 4 so if Germany pulls a Sealion on three…

Read the rules. If Londen falls, then USSR & USA may make a DOW and attack.

[taamvan]

If you leave Russia completely alone, it will turn into a massive, 50 income monster by turn 4 and destroy you.

A lot of people seem to be discounting the possibility of doing a invasion round after round, attacking with all your air but withdrawing from each rounds battle after your cannon fodder is lost.

If the UK builds up properly (men and a few fighters) however, the odds don’t look great on this one and feeding round after round of ground troops into a suicide mission drains too much of your starting forces that should be fighting on the eastern front.    With a 100% sacrifice of Ger resources, the battle is almost certain to be won at some point, but the war will be lost because of the investment of so much of  Germanys money and time

Destroying Moscow then using that money to turn around and push off the Western Allies is much more optimal than doing it the other way around, because taking London is less rewarding, more costly, and Russia has so many NO takeover targets that it has a chance to stand as equals against Germany.

The USA is usually too weak to cross or stuck out of the war for too long to intervene directly in the UK Ger battle but they are optimally positioned to liberate UK if it did fall, after reviving it the Germans may be weakened enough to succumb to the 3 power crush.

[UltimateChaos]

@taamvan:

If you leave Russia completely alone, it will turn into a massive, 50 income monster by turn 4 and destroy you.

A lot of people seem to be discounting the possibility of doing a invasion round after round, attacking with all your air but withdrawing from each rounds battle after your cannon fodder is lost.  Â

If the UK builds up properly (men and a few fighters) however, the odds don’t look great on this one and feeding round after round of ground troops into a suicide mission drains too much of your starting forces that should be fighting on the eastern front.    With a 100% sacrifice of Ger resources, the battle is almost certain to be won at some point, but the war will be lost because of the investment of so much of  Germanys money and time

Destroying Moscow then using that money to turn around and push off the Western Allies is much more optimal than doing it the other way around, because taking London is less rewarding, more costly, and Russia has so many NO takeover targets that it has a chance to stand as equals against Germany.

The USA is usually too weak to cross or stuck out of the war for too long to intervene directly in the UK Ger battle but they are optimally positioned to liberate UK if it did fall, after reviving it the Germans may be weakened enough to succumb to the 3 power crush.

I completely agree that Sealion is usually a losing strategy in Europe as Russia becomes too much of an opponent. However in my experience Sealion is often used to achieve a victory in the Pacific, by forcing the Americans to spend in the Atlantic. So do you think it would make more sense for the US to completely ignore a Sealion and continue to go full Pacific?

[IKE]

No, I’d still go Atlantic to liberate but as soon as Russia sees sea lion they can start building tanks and mech sending them to china and/or middle east towards India.  They also won’t need the siberian troops in Moscow so they are free to be a thorn in the side of Japan up north.

I think sea lion is a trap unless you can build for it while still staying flexible enough to beat Russia back and take it only if the opportunity is there with minimal investment/losses.  Otherwise if it’s too costly, as mentioned above you’ll win the battle but lose the war.

[Caesar-Seriona]

I still think US should respond in force against a successful Sea Lion, if USA has no fleet in it’s east then what is to stop Germany and Italy from withdrawing all there forces in the West, send them to USSR and then watch the Germany fleet now move into the Med to help the Italian navy finish off UK? Hence why USA needs to come in full force.

[simon33]

@Gargantua:

As soon as London falls, USSR and USA are automatically at war with the axis.

Unless of course you own a copy of first edition, where that rule didnt exist yet.

Slight correction. Not automatically but they no longer need to wait until turn 4 to DOW.

[IKE]

@ShadowHAwk:

@IKE:

No, I’d still go Atlantic to liberate but as soon as Russia sees sea lion they can start building tanks and mech sending them to china and/or middle east towards India.  They also won’t need the siberian troops in Moscow so they are free to be a thorn in the side of Japan up north.

I think sea lion is a trap unless you can build for it while still staying flexible enough to beat Russia back and take it only if the opportunity is there with minimal investment/losses.  Otherwise if it’s too costly, as mentioned above you’ll win the battle but lose the war.

Russia and the US need to addapt properly. Sending tanks into china is not the way to go. Germany is weak so you should capitalize on that and get some sweet NO money from germany.
If russia has more or equal income to germany and more /equal forces then europe is stabilized.

Ok and how about the pacific?  US needs to come liberate London.  What’s stopping Japan from winning the game?

With no pressure from Germany, Russia has enough units to push west and spend some resources to fight Japan.

[taamvan]

You don’t want to have to liberate London; if you can you may revive a losing game but losing London by itself is a huge downturn in your chances and if the Germans didn’t lose 50%+ of their air during the battle, the rest of the game will be a slog.

This is why an early Japan declaration is well-combined with a Sea-Lion threat;  the USA has to begin his commit to one coast or the other, and depending on which way they go, Germany can respond.    Once the USA has begun the KJF build, there is probably no viable rescue force that can be brought together ad-hoc, but that’s the point; as the allies you have to see what they are about to try, and focus on making it extremely costly to follow through with their commit.

If UK responds with 100% defense, a proper build, the invasion won’t be easy or cheap without amazing luck.  If UK goofs around, taking them over becomes so easy with the x2 x3 waves (+1 Italy sacrificial attack) that no USA intervention or rescue plan will succeed anyways. However, this works both ways;  once Germany has gone down this road he has to escalate his commitment (or fold and attack Russia) turn after turn which means no pressure on Russia since its all on UK….

On the other hand, if Germany is putting all his eggs in this basket, USA can too.

1. Bombers built in WUS can still fly direct to London, they just can’t bomb the channel on the way past.
2. “KJF” forces on the West Coast can transition direct to SZ 89 and with a naval base, are in the same position -1 turn as if they had been built “for KGF”
3. as USA/UK you don’t even need a place to land or carriers, you have the GIUK and British Carriers as unsinkable bases if you need them (Greenland, Iceland, UK).
4. once Russia has transformed and consolidated, it fights Germany on a 1:1 basis after turn 4.    If it avoids the attrition of the early game and gets all its income for 2-3 turns, it is neither easy nor quick to defeat.

[CWO Marc]

@Caesar:

I still think US should respond in force against a successful Sea Lion […] Hence why USA needs to come in full force.

This American response could be code-named Sea Eagle.  :)  Sea eagles actually do exist, though these species seem to live in other parts of the world that the U.S.

[taamvan]

Unternehmen Zee-Adler Angriff?

Adler =  raptor
Angriff = attack

I like it.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

In my opinion you have to get London back. It would be best if you can dissuade Germany from attempting Sealion and there are things that you can do about that. Ultimately though, if the German player is determined to attack London then you should be prepared to take it back from them.

I made a video this morning with some ideas on what to do with the Americans that includes using SZ 102. Another thread has been started on what to do with 102 so I combined my thoughts on the two threads to make this video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X6LjB8bCbw

[aequitas-et-veritas]

@taamvan:

Unternehmen Zee-Adler Angriff?

Adler =  raptor
Angriff = attack

I like it.

Was??
What do you mean?