Thank you! That was very helpful!
Subs vs loaded carrier question
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Just when you think you know the rules backward, a new player asks a question that gets you thinking and doubts your knowledge and/or the rules themselves.
SCENARIO
There are just 2 fully operational JAPANESE carriers with planes on board that are attacked at wake island Sea zone by only 2 US subs.
Wake island is owned by US.
when the battle commences I’m under the impression that the planes take off from the carrier to fight. But why the hell should they?!?! They cant hit the subs and if the carriers are damaged they cant land back on them or land on Wake island and there are no other carriers in neighbouring sea zones. Therefore any damaged or even destroyed carriers mean that all planes are lost too.Why wouldnt the planes just stay on the carriers as cargo in the hope that the carriers are just damaged in the fight and are then trapped on board until the carriers can limp away for repair?
I bet this has been asked before but this is one massive forum to try and search through nowadays!!
Thank you in advance
Woody -
Hi, yes that is a common question for new players. Actually the rule is that when an aircraft carrier is attacked by anything, the planes are considered to be in the air defending the aircraft carrief like real ‘CAP’ which means combat air patrol. So yes, if you take a hit on an aircraft carrier then their planes have one move to find a safe and legal landing spot or they are gone! The only time that a fighter stays onan aircraft carrier is when the carrier has another partner’s plane on it. Then it is not in the air defending and is considered ‘cargo’. I hope this helps sir? :wink:
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Just don’t leave the carriers alone in that scenario. Bring other warships to soak up the hits.
For example one additional destroyer is enough to take a hit and to enable the fighters to hit the subs. -
It’s mentioned explicitly in the rules somewhere that the planes take off even if only attacked by subs.
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Posted by: Gen.Nehring
Insert Quote
Hi, yes that is a common question for new players. Actually the rule is that when an aircraft carrier is attacked by anything, the planes are considered to be in the air defending the aircraft carrief like real ‘CAP’ which means combat air patrol. So yes, if you take a hit on an aircraft carrier then their planes have one move to find a safe and legal landing spot or they are gone! The only time that a fighter stays onan aircraft carrier is when the carrier has another partner’s plane on it. Then it is not in the air defending and is considered ‘cargo’. I hope this helps sir? wink
Posted on: September 08, 2016, 07:06:34 pm Posted by: WoodyWanKenobiI am pretty sure that allied air craft are considered cargo only when attacking. Since the carriers get attacked in this scenario i would say that they fly up to defend just if they where your own.
Please correct me if i am wrong
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Its more straightforward…subs cannot hit planes, and planes cannot hit subs when you don’t have a destroyer. This is the weakness of surface ships BB CA and CRuiser because without a destroyer, they can get first struck.
Your carriers get to attack. Even if you were hit twice in the first round in the example you gave, you would get at least 3 chances to retal against the subs (at 2) and sink them before they slaughter you.
Your planes have 1 move to land if their carrier is lost or damaged. If they cant, they die.
Not sure why people are making that out to be a silly rule…the subs are special units, it seems very straightforward and balanced to me…defend your fleets or get ambushed. Build destroyers and sub hunt or get convoyed and ambushed.
How is that not sub-like or rulesy?
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You could also call it one of the few limitations or weaknesses of aircraft (which are the most powerful units in the game) that they cannot kill subs alone….and cannot protect your fleets without more…
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Planes are considered to be launched at the start of the Combat Movement phase from land and carriers regardless of if your assets are being attacked. They don’t land until the end of the Non-Combat Move phase.
This also explains why you cannot move the planes from the end of the carrier’s movement to artificially extend their range as well.
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Posted by: Gen.Nehring
Insert Quote
  Hi, yes that is a common question for new players. Actually the rule is that when an aircraft carrier is attacked by anything, the planes are considered to be in the air defending the aircraft carrief like real ‘CAP’ which means combat air patrol. So yes, if you take a hit on an aircraft carrier then their planes have one move to find a safe and legal landing spot or they are gone! The only time that a fighter stays onan aircraft carrier is when the carrier has another partner’s plane on it. Then it is not in the air defending and is considered ‘cargo’. I hope this helps sir? wink
Posted on: September 08, 2016, 07:06:34 pm Posted by: WoodyWanKenobiI am pretty sure that allied air craft are considered cargo only when attacking. Since the carriers get attacked in this scenario i would say that they fly up to defend just if they where your own.
Please correct me if i am wrong
You are wrong. Under the unit profiles, aircraft carriers, it says “Air units on a friendly power’s carrier are always treated as cargo on the carrier owners turn”. In addition, it goes on to say “A damaged carrier can’t conduct air operations, which means that no air units may take off or land on it. Any guest air units that were on board the carrier as cargo at the time of the when it was damaged are trapped onboard and can’t leave, attack, or defend until the carrier is repaired.” So no, air units on a friendly carrier cannot “fly up to defend”.
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Posted by: Gen.Nehring
Insert Quote
� � Hi, yes that is a common question for new players. Actually the rule is that when an aircraft carrier is attacked by anything, the planes are considered to be in the air defending the aircraft carrief like real ‘CAP’ which means combat air patrol. So yes, if you take a hit on an aircraft carrier then their planes have one move to find a safe and legal landing spot or they are gone! The only time that a fighter stays onan aircraft carrier is when the carrier has another partner’s plane on it. Then it is not in the air defending and is considered ‘cargo’. I hope this helps sir? wink
Posted on: September 08, 2016, 07:06:34 pm Posted by: WoodyWanKenobiI am pretty sure that allied air craft are considered cargo only when attacking. Since the carriers get attacked in this scenario i would say that they fly up to defend just if they where your own.
Please correct me if i am wrong
You are wrong. Under the unit profiles, aircraft carriers, it says “Air units on a friendly power’s carrier are always treated as cargo on the carrier owners turn”. In addition, it goes on to say “A damaged carrier can’t conduct air operations, which means that no air units may take off or land on it. Any guest air units that were on board the carrier as cargo at the time of the when it was damaged are trapped onboard and can’t leave, attack, or defend until the carrier is repaired.” So no, air units on a friendly carrier cannot “fly up to defend”.
No he isnt, your quote tells that he is right.
Allied air units are only cargo when attacking, you are saying they are only cargo on the carriers owners turn. Which is saying exactly the same, the only time when a carrier can attack is in the combat phase of its owners turn. Any other time it is defending or there simply isnt any combat.
So
I am pretty sure that allied air craft are considered cargo only when attacking. Since the carriers get attacked in this scenario i would say that they fly up to defend just if they where your own.
This statement is true. Just worded different from the rulebook bit it is the same scenario.
The only way a friendly plane on a carrier couldn’t defend would be, if say there was a UK carrier that had US planes on it, and on the UK turn the said carrier conducted a naval battle and took a hit on the carrier, meaning it was damaged with US planes on it. Then on the following Italian turn, say the Italians attacked that carrier then the US planes couldn’t defend since it was damaged.
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Posted by: Gen.Nehring
Insert Quote
� � Hi, yes that is a common question for new players. Actually the rule is that when an aircraft carrier is attacked by anything, the planes are considered to be in the air defending the aircraft carrief like real ‘CAP’ which means combat air patrol. So yes, if you take a hit on an aircraft carrier then their planes have one move to find a safe and legal landing spot or they are gone! The only time that a fighter stays onan aircraft carrier is when the carrier has another partner’s plane on it. Then it is not in the air defending and is considered ‘cargo’. I hope this helps sir? wink
Posted on: September 08, 2016, 07:06:34 pm Posted by: WoodyWanKenobiI am pretty sure that allied air craft are considered cargo only when attacking. Since the carriers get attacked in this scenario i would say that they fly up to defend just if they where your own.
Please correct me if i am wrong
You are wrong. Under the unit profiles, aircraft carriers, it says “Air units on a friendly power’s carrier are always treated as cargo on the carrier owners turn”. In addition, it goes on to say "A damaged carrier can’t conduct air operations, which means that no air units may take off or land on it. Any guest air units that were on board the carrier as cargo at the time of the when it was damaged are trapped onboard and can’t leave, attack, or defend until the carrier is repaired."Â So no, air units on a friendly carrier cannot “fly up to defend”.
No he isnt, your quote tells that he is right.
Allied air units are only cargo when attacking, you are saying they are only cargo on the carriers owners turn. Which is saying exactly the same, the only time when a carrier can attack is in the combat phase of its owners turn. Any other time it is defending or there simply isnt any combat.
So
I am pretty sure that allied air craft are considered cargo only when attacking. Since the carriers get attacked in this scenario i would say that they fly up to defend just if they where your own.
This statement is true. Just worded different from the rulebook bit it is the same scenario.
The only way a friendly plane on a carrier couldn’t defend would be, if say there was a UK carrier that had US planes on it, and on the UK turn the said carrier conducted a naval battle and took a hit on the carrier, meaning it was damaged with US planes on it. Then on the following Italian turn, say the Italians attacked that carrier then the US planes couldn’t defend since it was damaged.
This is what I was pointing out. A friendly air unit can indeed “fly up & defend” from an undamaged carrier if it is being attacked.
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Just changing the subject a bit: i know the rules are the rules, but IMHO the rule is wrong that planes can not shoot at subs! Historically the biggest treat for subs were planes at that time! Remember that at that time they were submercibles. They would dive when sighting an enemy. It was easy for planes to spot a sub. Plus, they were quicker to attack, then the sub to submerge. A more fitting rule would be that planes would have one shot at a sub. But this would make game rules more complex…
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That was the rule in classic. I also think that the rule is not a valid reflection on history.
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Just changing the subject a bit: i know the rules are the rules, but IMHO the rule is wrong that planes can not shoot at subs! Historically the biggest treat for subs were planes at that time! Remember that at that time they were submercibles. They would dive when sighting an enemy. It was easy for planes to spot a sub. Plus, they were quicker to attack, then the sub to submerge. A more fitting rule would be that planes would have one shot at a sub. But this would make game rules more complex…
Subs could also shoot at planes, too. U-boats had an AA Gun on deck for that purpose, along with an 88mm deck gun for finishing off unarmed steamers. But at this scale you have to paint with a wide brush and make rules that apply “in general”.
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I think I read somewhere or heard somewhere that the last combat action in Europe in WW2 was an Italian sub shooting down a US plane…
Don’t quote me – I’m sure the specifics are wrong somehow, because I don’t remember exactly what was said, when, or by whom. But yes, subs could shoot at planes.
Marsh
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Could - but mostly they didn’t. They generally dived, very, very quickly to try and avoid combat.
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The point is that from 1940-1942, a bunch of planes wandering around patrolling the seas were not an effective anti submarine force. In order to make the air power effective, they needed a convoy system, radar, radar detection, radio coordination and direction, corvettes, sloops, escort destroyers, escort carriers, armed merchant ships as ersatz carriers, the hedgehog and other forward firing weapons, ASDIC, tactical refinements, breaking the enigma code, tight tactical coordination between escorts, and finally to keep the subs on the defensive by making sure that the coverage was so complete that even if they were not destroyed, the submersibles could only fight underwater, could only recharge at night, and risked being destroyed by DEs, PBYs and leigh light carrying british bombers every time they attempted to attack.
In Axis and Allies, all of these things are simulated by requiring you to have a destroyer unit that costs 8.
There are no granular techs. There are no corvettes, armed cruisers, escort carriers, sea planes, depth charges or any other tactical considerations in a strategic game. This is not that kind of game.
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Not to mention centimetric radar which nullified the Metox receiver and helped, perhaps caused, the subs to need to be submerged at night rather than having a free charging time every night.
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Just changing the subject a bit: i know the rules are the rules, but IMHO the rule is wrong that planes can not shoot at subs! Historically the biggest treat for subs were planes at that time! Remember that at that time they were submercibles. They would dive when sighting an enemy. It was easy for planes to spot a sub. Plus, they were quicker to attack, then the sub to submerge. A more fitting rule would be that planes would have one shot at a sub. But this would make game rules more complex…
It was not easy for planes to spot subs.
What you might referring to is, when the area was known, then it was easy for a plane to spot a surfaced sub.
Because the KM-Enigmacode was broken, it was easier to find subs in the Atlantic. -
Couldn’t they use airborne radar to find subs?
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