OOB Oysteilo +40 v Gamerman01 with tech - UHD map

oysteilo

I kind of understand what you are saying. See top of page 120 in the global Q and A thread and the following dialog where I ask about this.

My understanding is the landing is allowed regardless of the kamikaze option/result.

gamerman01

@oysteilo Oh, sure, landing is allowed for sure

I mean the part about whether you attack the subs or not. It seems to me you don’t have to declare that with combat move, and you can even wait until that individual battle to decide. If I’m right, I never knew this before.

And I realize this morning you are taking advantage of the loophole where you can move Russia into Korea without upsetting the Mongolians. Dastardly!

oysteilo

well, you dont declare wether you attack the sub or not in a regular combat move either? You are asked about that when you actually conduct combat, not in the combat move phase. Then I believe the kamikaze tokens happen before you actually conduct combat and henze it is not asked for (yet) Or?

What i struggle with here is why the landing is allowed if the destroyer is dead by kamikaze. Then it is just a regular sub vs transport and it never goes well

oysteilo

Game History

Round: 2

    Research Technology - Americans
        Americans spend 15 on tech rolls
            Americans roll 1,1,2 and gets 0 hits
        Americans removing all Technology Tokens after unsuccessful research.

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 1 bomber, 1 carrier, 2 destroyers, 1 submarine and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 0 techTokens; 

    Combat Move - Americans
        1 unit repaired.
        1 bomber moved from United Kingdom to 123 Sea Zone
        2 bombers moved from Eastern United States to 123 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from Hawaiian Islands to 26 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer, 2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 26 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from 6 Sea Zone to Korea

    Combat - Americans
        Battle in Korea
        Battle in 123 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 3 bombers
            Germans defend with 1 cruiser and 1 submarine
            1 submarine owned by the Germans submerged
                Americans roll dice for 3 bombers in 123 Sea Zone, round 2 : 2/3 hits, 2.00 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 cruiser in 123 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                1 bomber owned by the Americans lost in 123 Sea Zone
                1 cruiser owned by the Germans lost in 123 Sea Zone
            Americans win, taking Korea from Japanese with 2 bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
            Casualties for Americans: 1 bomber
            Casualties for Germans: 1 cruiser

    Non Combat Move - Americans
        2 infantry moved from Brazil to 86 Sea Zone
        2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 86 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from 91 Sea Zone to Gibraltar
        1 carrier and 2 submarines moved from 10 Sea Zone to 26 Sea Zone
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Hawaiian Islands to 26 Sea Zone
        1 aaGun and 1 infantry moved from Central United States to Western United States
        1 artillery moved from Brazil to French Guiana
        1 infantry moved from Brazil to French Guiana
        2 bombers moved from 123 Sea Zone to United Kingdom

    Place Units - Americans
        1 destroyer placed in 101 Sea Zone
        1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 submarine and 1 transport placed in 10 Sea Zone
        1 bomber placed in Western United States

    Turn Complete - Americans
        Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 3
            Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 6 Sea Zone. Rolls: 2,5,2,2
        Americans collect 52 PUs (3 lost to blockades); end with 52 PUs
        Objective Americans 1 Homeland: Americans met a national objective for an additional 10 PUs; end with 62 PUs
        Objective Americans 3 Defense Obligations: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 67 PUs
        Objective Americans 2 Outer Territories: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 72 PUs

    Purchase Units - Chinese
        Trigger Chinese Artillery Supplies: Chinese has their production frontier changed to: productionChinese_Burma_Road_Open
        Chinese buy 3 artilleries and 1 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Chinese
        1 infantry moved from Yunnan to Kwangsi
              Chinese take Kwangsi from Japanese
        1 infantry moved from Szechwan to Yunnan
        1 infantry moved from Shensi to Kweichow

    Combat - Chinese

    Non Combat Move - Chinese

    Place Units - Chinese
        3 artilleries and 1 infantry placed in Yunnan

    Turn Complete - Chinese
        Chinese collect 10 PUs; end with 10 PUs
        Objective Chinese 1 Burma Road: Chinese met a national objective for an additional 6 PUs; end with 16 PUs

    Research Technology - British
        British spend 5 on tech rolls
            British rolls : 0/1 hits, 0.00 expected hits
        British removing all Technology Tokens after unsuccessful research.

    Purchase Units - British
        British buy 1 airfield and 1 factory_minor; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; 0 techTokens; 

    Purchase Units - UK_Pacific
        UK_Pacific buy 1 artillery and 4 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - British
        2 infantry moved from Yunnan to French Indo China
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Yunnan to French Indo China
        1 fighter moved from Yunnan to 37 Sea Zone
        1 bomber moved from Gibraltar to 118 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer moved from 91 Sea Zone to 118 Sea Zone
        1 destroyer moved from 110 Sea Zone to 123 Sea Zone

    Combat - British
        Battle in 37 Sea Zone
            British attack with 1 fighter
            Japanese defend with 1 transport
                1 transport owned by the Japanese lost in 37 Sea Zone
            British win with 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 transport
        Battle in 118 Sea Zone
            British attack with 1 bomber and 1 destroyer
            Germans defend with 1 submarine
                British roll dice for 1 bomber and 1 destroyer in 118 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in 118 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                1 destroyer owned by the British lost in 118 Sea Zone
                1 submarine owned by the Germans lost in 118 Sea Zone
            British win with 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is -2
            Casualties for British: 1 destroyer
            Casualties for Germans: 1 submarine
        Battle in French Indo China
            British attack with 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
            Japanese defend with 1 artillery
                British roll dice for 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in French Indo China, round 2 : 1/4 hits, 1.50 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 1 artillery in French Indo China, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 artillery owned by the Japanese lost in French Indo China
            British win, taking French Indo China from Japanese with 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 4
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 artillery
        Battle in 123 Sea Zone
            British attack with 1 destroyer
            Germans defend with 1 submarine
                British roll dice for 1 destroyer in 123 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in 123 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                British roll dice for 1 destroyer in 123 Sea Zone, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in 123 Sea Zone, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                British roll dice for 1 destroyer in 123 Sea Zone, round 4 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in 123 Sea Zone, round 4 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                British roll dice for 1 destroyer in 123 Sea Zone, round 5 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in 123 Sea Zone, round 5 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                British roll dice for 1 destroyer in 123 Sea Zone, round 6 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in 123 Sea Zone, round 6 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                1 submarine owned by the Germans lost in 123 Sea Zone
            British win with 1 destroyer remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
            Casualties for Germans: 1 submarine

    Non Combat Move - British
        1 bomber moved from 118 Sea Zone to United Kingdom
        1 cruiser and 1 destroyer moved from 76 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Egypt to Belgian Congo
        2 infantry moved from Rhodesia to Belgian Congo
        1 aaGun and 3 infantry moved from Algeria to 92 Sea Zone
        1 aaGun, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 2 fighters, 3 infantry and 2 transports moved from 92 Sea Zone to 98 Sea Zone
        3 infantry moved from 98 Sea Zone to Egypt
        1 aaGun moved from 98 Sea Zone to Egypt
        2 fighters moved from Algeria to Egypt
        1 tactical_bomber moved from Algeria to Egypt
        1 transport moved from 91 Sea Zone to 106 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Ontario to Quebec
        1 destroyer moved from 83 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
        1 aaGun and 2 infantry moved from Burma to Yunnan
        2 mech_infantrys moved from India to Yunnan
        1 fighter moved from 37 Sea Zone to Yunnan
        1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from French Indo China to Yunnan
        1 infantry moved from Eastern Persia to Persia
              British take Persia from Neutral_Allies

    Place Units - British
        1 airfield and 1 factory_minor placed in Egypt

    Turn Complete - British
        British collect 29 PUs; end with 30 PUs

    Place Units - UK_Pacific
        1 artillery and 4 infantry placed in India

    Turn Complete - UK_Pacific
        UK_Pacific collect 9 PUs; end with 9 PUs
        Some Units in India change ownership: 1 artillery and 4 infantry

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : 0.00
Japanese regular : -0.33
British rolls : 0.00
Germans regular : 0.50
British regular : -1.17

uk2.tsvg

GovZ

What i struggle with here is why the landing is allowed if the destroyer is dead by kamikaze. Then it is just a regular sub vs transport and it never goes well

I thought the same thing, but was corrected recently. I think the choice to ignore the sub happens as part of the combat move phase. If the attacker ignores it, the sub doesn’t play a part anywhere during the conduct combat phase. If the attacking destroyer is then kamikazed, its transport vs empty SZ and the landing happens.

And I’m still not used to this new map.

gamerman01

Yeah that’s not quite what I mean

Combat move, I see NOTHING that says you have to declare whether you’re ignoring or not.
Transports can’t be hit by kamikazes, so yes, it doesn’t matter whether the destroyer gets hit by kamikazes

BUT
3) TripleA might be wrong to require decisions about attacking transports and subs first. From all I can see in the rulebook, the attacker does not have to declare whether he’s attacking the subs. As Oysteilo did, you can simply move a destroyer in to escort the transport over the subs. Then you do NOT have to declare whether you are ATTACKING the subs until that battle comes up in the conduct combat phase. This last part is what I don’t remember anyone talking about before.

I suppose I should take it to the Q&A thread.

gamerman01

Great luck that the cruiser hit - nice move

gamerman01

@oysteilo said in OOB Oysteilo +40 v Gamerman01 with tech - UHD map:

well, you dont declare wether you attack the sub or not in a regular combat move either?

Right! I’ll ask in the Q&A

You are asked about that when you actually conduct combat, not in the combat move phase.

But at the BEGINNING of the combat phase. I think you may be able to wait until you actually get to that battle because I can’t find a rule that says otherwise.

Then I believe the kamikaze tokens happen before you actually conduct combat and henze it is not asked for (yet) Or?

Kamikazes are declared at beginning of conduct combat phase

What i struggle with here is why the landing is allowed if the destroyer is dead by kamikaze. Then it is just a regular sub vs transport and it never goes well

Kamikazes don’t bring the subs into the battle, only scrambling does.

gamerman01

Wow. Krieghund admits it does not explicitly say in the rulebook.

Now we know - you have to declare whether you’re going to attack the subs, during combat movement. So technically, before my kamikaze decision I was supposed to know whether you were attacking the subs or not.

Of course with 2 subs I wasn’t worried about you attacking the subs, and you didn’t want to attack them. But if there was only 1, it would have mattered.

Interesting! I guess I have to write this down somewhere or I’ll forget the rule next time.

oysteilo

Let me summarize…

I should have declared to attack or not. In this situation obviously no attack and it has no practical consequences since there is no scramble
If i declare not to fight the sub, and survive the kamikaze (or none is chosen) and a scramble is made resulting in a dead destroyer, then the landing is not allowed due to the sub(s)?

(one could also imagine surviving kami, but both destroyer and fighter is dead dring that combat)

Is that the point?

gamerman01

@oysteilo said in OOB Oysteilo +40 v Gamerman01 with tech - UHD map:

Let me summarize…

I should have declared to attack or not. In this situation obviously no attack and it has no practical consequences since there is no scramble

I was pretty sure you wouldn’t attack, yes. It didn’t bother me that you didn’t declare in this situation. This situation just made me realize this is a rule that I don’t know, and in another situation it could be important.

If i declare not to fight the sub, and survive the kamikaze (or none is chosen) and a scramble is made resulting in a dead destroyer, then the landing is not allowed due to the sub(s)?

This one’s hard to explain.
If it was a destroyer and transport vs. 2 subs and a scrambled fighter, the scrambled fighter pulls the subs into the battle (they can be ignored in combat movement, not in combat when a fighter scrambles)
Then the transport is in the battle but only gets hit if the defender scores more than 1 hit in a single round. If the destroyer is sunk but the transport survives, the transport would retreat along with its cargo.
To illustrate, let’s say you did attack my subs (no scramble, no kamikaze). If both subs hit at once, the loaded transport is destroyed. If only 1 sub hits, you still have a transport but it will retreat with its cargo.
The sub doesn’t prevent the landing. If I had a fighter and scrambled, and even if I took off the fighter for the first casualty (making it destroyer vs. sub) the sub does not prevent the landing. Subs only prevent landings in combat movement if there is no escort.

(one could also imagine surviving kami, but both destroyer and fighter is dead dring that combat)

Is that the point?

Oh, I think this is what I explained above. (destroyer survives kamikaze, shoots down fighter but a sub still remains)

No, my only point was whether and when the player has to declare he is attacking subs. The rulebook never actually says anything about this, so I wondered if the player could actually wait to decide whether to attack subs (like in this situation) until actually conducting Z6 and Korea activities.

As you saw, Krieghund says the combat movement phase is all about declaring intentions of what to attack or not attack, so that means technically you were supposed to tell me whether you were attacking my subs before I have to decide on kamikazes (kamikazes are at the beginning of the conduct combat phase). Of course I don’t mind at all in this situation - neither of us knew the rule for sure and it didn’t matter because I was fine with you attacking 2 subs.

I knew waiting until conduct combat to decide whether to attack subs felt wrong, but I couldn’t find it in the rulebook!

oysteilo

perfect, thanks for the detailed explenation and answer!

gamerman01

I’m glad if it makes sense -

You’re welcome - and now we can terrorize someone else with the knowledge!

oysteilo

@gamerman01 said in OOB Oysteilo +40 v Gamerman01 with tech - UHD map:

I’m glad if it makes sense -

You’re welcome - and now we can terrorize someone else with the knowledge!

the key take home message is to make attacker declear his intentions and then everything pretty much follows smoothly I think.

Its never done like this in triple a so it is hard to follow/easy to go with the triple a flow but its good to have it sorted out

gamerman01

Exactly.

And I guess we can’t terrorize people with this knowledge, but we CAN keep them from accidentally getting an advantage as the attacker.

I just realized it because I had the kamikaze decision and I didn’t know for sure whether you were attacking the subs.
Then I looked it up in the rulebook and it is silent on the issue.

Cool!

oysteilo

based on total unit value I am in deep problems here. I should be up by at least 500 here, but it is only 400 and you have yet to capitalize on the tripple yummy in novgorod… :(

oysteilo

even after 10 years or so “new” situations keep poping up. Thats what I like about this game!

gamerman01

Hey, Leningrad will stand until G4, at LEAST, and that’s all factored in to the 400-500 formula.

Only 2 rounds in and I think I’m starting to adjust to the map

I’m surprised it’s just about 400, but you didn’t foolishly sacrifice a transport to get Normandy back, and that would have been a 60 IPC swing right there.

I’ve got big problems.

gamerman01

Another factor is J1 DOW,
With a J3 DOW I still wouldn’t have Philippines or Malaya or Hong Kong. So you are actually definitely ahead even with just +400 right now

gamerman01

Man, I thought you were going to smoke the guys in North Africa.

Powerful position, though.

OOB Oysteilo +40 v Gamerman01 with tech - UHD map

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