L20 cyanight(axis) vs farmboy(Allies+16) BM3.3

@cyanight said in L20 cyanight(axis) vs farmboy(Allies+16) BM3.3:

@farmboy A declaration of war is all you need then their state is no longer neutral.

^^This is wrong though.

Unlike powers, war is never
declared on neutral territories—they are simply attacked.

If not attacked they are still neutral, friendly or unfriendly doesnt matter. You cant fly over them in combat except to attack them. But you can fly over them in NCM if you take control of them in NCM (friendly neutrals) or if you engage them in combat. So you would have to attack to convert them from neutral to limbo status.

I’ll roll for that Soviet inf. Either it will be destroyed or if it survives the first round, it will retreat back to Kazakhstan.

[dice 1d6]

vs

[dice 4d6]

1d6: 1
4d6: 6, 6, 2, 2

TripleA Turn Summary: Japanese round 11

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 Balanced Mod3, version: 3.4.0

Game History

Round: 11

    Purchase Units - Japanese
        Japanese buy 2 armour, 2 destroyers, 1 factory_minor, 5 infantry and 1 mech_infantry; Remaining resources: 1 PUs; 6 SuicideAttackTokens; 

    Politics - Japanese
        Trigger Japanese Friendly With TrueNeutrals: Setting captureUnitOnEnteringBy to Germans:Italians:Japanese for territoryAttachment attached to Chile
        Trigger Japanese Friendly With TrueNeutrals: Setting captureUnitOnEnteringBy to Germans:Italians:Japanese for territoryAttachment attached to Argentina
        Trigger Japanese Friendly With TrueNeutrals: Setting captureUnitOnEnteringBy to Germans:Italians:Japanese for territoryAttachment attached to Venezuela
        Trigger Japanese Friendly With TrueNeutrals: Setting captureUnitOnEnteringBy to Germans:Italians:Japanese for territoryAttachment attached to Sweden
        Trigger Japanese Friendly With TrueNeutrals: Setting captureUnitOnEnteringBy to Germans:Italians:Japanese for territoryAttachment attached to Switzerland
        Trigger Japanese Friendly With TrueNeutrals: Setting captureUnitOnEnteringBy to Germans:Italians:Japanese for territoryAttachment attached to Spain
        Trigger Japanese Friendly With TrueNeutrals: Setting captureUnitOnEnteringBy to Germans:Italians:Japanese for territoryAttachment attached to Portugal
        Trigger Japanese Friendly With TrueNeutrals: Setting captureUnitOnEnteringBy to Germans:Italians:Japanese for territoryAttachment attached to Turkey
        Trigger Japanese Friendly With TrueNeutrals: Setting captureUnitOnEnteringBy to Germans:Italians:Japanese for territoryAttachment attached to Saudi Arabia
        Trigger Japanese Friendly With TrueNeutrals: Setting captureUnitOnEnteringBy to Germans:Italians:Japanese for territoryAttachment attached to Afghanistan
        Trigger Japanese Friendly With TrueNeutrals: Setting captureUnitOnEnteringBy to Germans:Italians:Japanese for territoryAttachment attached to Mozambique
        Trigger Japanese Friendly With TrueNeutrals: Setting captureUnitOnEnteringBy to Germans:Italians:Japanese for territoryAttachment attached to Angola

    Combat Move - Japanese
        1 unit repaired.
        3 tactical_bombers moved from Western Australia to 55 Sea Zone
        3 tactical_bombers moved from Western Australia to 46 Sea Zone
        5 fighters moved from 54 Sea Zone to 49 Sea Zone
        3 fighters moved from 54 Sea Zone to 46 Sea Zone
        2 fighters moved from 54 Sea Zone to 55 Sea Zone
        1 artillery moved from New South Wales to 62 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 1 transport moved from 62 Sea Zone to 63 Sea Zone
        1 artillery moved from 63 Sea Zone to New Zealand
        1 infantry moved from Queensland to Northern Territory
              Japanese take Northern Territory from ANZAC
        1 submarine moved from 41 Sea Zone to 38 Sea Zone
        2 bombers moved from Western Australia to 38 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from French Indo China to 43 Sea Zone
        2 bombers moved from French Indo China to 38 Sea Zone
        1 bomber moved from French Indo China to 42 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from French Indo China to Shan State
        2 fighters moved from French Indo China to Shan State
        2 infantry moved from French Indo China to Siam
        2 fighters moved from French Indo China to Siam
        2 infantry moved from Shantung to Jehol
        1 fighter moved from Japan to Jehol

    Combat - Japanese
        Battle in New Zealand
        Battle in 43 Sea Zone
            Japanese attack with 1 fighter
            Americans defend with 1 transport
                1 transport owned by the Americans lost in 43 Sea Zone
            Japanese win, taking New Zealand from ANZAC with 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
            Casualties for Americans: 1 transport
        Battle in 42 Sea Zone
            Japanese attack with 1 bomber
            British defend with 1 transport
                1 transport owned by the British lost in 42 Sea Zone
            Japanese win with 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
            Casualties for British: 1 transport
        Battle in 38 Sea Zone
            Japanese attack with 4 bombers and 1 submarine
            Americans defend with 1 cruiser and 1 transport
                Japanese roll dice for 1 submarine in 38 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 4 bombers in 38 Sea Zone, round 2 : 3/4 hits, 2.67 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 cruiser and 1 transport in 38 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                1 cruiser owned by the Americans, 1 submarine owned by the Japanese and 1 transport owned by the Americans lost in 38 Sea Zone
            Japanese win with 4 bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 13
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 submarine
            Casualties for Americans: 1 cruiser and 1 transport
        Battle in 46 Sea Zone
            Japanese attack with 3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers
            Americans defend with 1 destroyer
                Japanese roll dice for 3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers in 46 Sea Zone, round 2 : 4/6 hits, 3.50 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 destroyer in 46 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 destroyer owned by the Americans lost in 46 Sea Zone
            Japanese win with 3 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
            Casualties for Americans: 1 destroyer
        Battle in Siam
            Japanese attack with 2 fighters and 2 infantry
            British defend with 1 mech_infantry
                Japanese roll dice for 2 fighters and 2 infantry in Siam, round 2 : 2/4 hits, 1.33 expected hits
                UK_Pacific roll dice for 1 mech_infantry in Siam, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 mech_infantry owned by the British lost in Siam
            Japanese win, taking Siam from UK_Pacific with 2 fighters and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 4
            Casualties for British: 1 mech_infantry
        Battle in 55 Sea Zone
            Japanese attack with 2 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers
            Americans defend with 1 destroyer and 1 submarine
            1 submarine owned by the Americans Submerged
                Japanese roll dice for 2 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers in 55 Sea Zone, round 2 : 2/5 hits, 2.83 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 destroyer in 55 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 destroyer owned by the Americans lost in 55 Sea Zone
            Japanese win with 2 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
            Casualties for Americans: 1 destroyer
        Battle in Jehol
            Japanese attack with 1 fighter and 2 infantry
            Russians defend with 1 infantry
                Japanese roll dice for 1 fighter and 2 infantry in Jehol, round 2 : 1/3 hits, 0.83 expected hits
                Chinese roll dice for 1 infantry in Jehol, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Jehol
            Japanese win, taking Jehol from Chinese with 1 fighter and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
        Battle in Shan State
            Japanese attack with 2 fighters and 2 infantry
            Americans defend with 1 infantry and 1 marine
                Japanese roll dice for 2 fighters and 2 infantry in Shan State, round 2 : 1/4 hits, 1.33 expected hits
                UK_Pacific roll dice for 1 infantry and 1 marine in Shan State, round 2 : 2/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                2 infantry owned by the Japanese and 1 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Shan State
                Japanese roll dice for 2 fighters in Shan State, round 3 : 2/2 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                UK_Pacific roll dice for 1 marine in Shan State, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 marine owned by the Americans lost in Shan State
            Japanese win with 2 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 2
            Casualties for Japanese: 2 infantry
            Casualties for Americans: 1 infantry and 1 marine
        Battle in 49 Sea Zone
            Japanese attack with 5 fighters
            Americans defend with 1 destroyer
                Japanese roll dice for 5 fighters in 49 Sea Zone, round 2 : 2/5 hits, 2.50 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 destroyer in 49 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 fighter owned by the Japanese and 1 destroyer owned by the Americans lost in 49 Sea Zone
            Japanese win with 4 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is -2
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 fighter
            Casualties for Americans: 1 destroyer

    Non Combat Move - Japanese
        4 fighters moved from 49 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Western Australia to Queensland
        2 fighters moved from 55 Sea Zone to Queensland
        3 tactical_bombers moved from 55 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
        2 fighters moved from 46 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from 46 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
        3 tactical_bombers moved from 46 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
        3 tactical_bombers moved from 54 Sea Zone to Queensland
        1 bomber moved from 42 Sea Zone to French Indo China
        2 fighters moved from Shan State to French Indo China
        1 fighter moved from 43 Sea Zone to French Indo China
        1 mech_infantry moved from Shantung to Hunan
        1 fighter moved from Jehol to Hunan
        1 infantry moved from Suiyuyan to Shensi
        1 infantry moved from Chahar to Suiyuyan
        1 infantry moved from Anhwe to Chahar
        1 infantry moved from Hopei to Shensi
        1 infantry moved from Anhwe to Hopei
        1 infantry moved from Kweichow to Shensi
        1 infantry moved from Anhwe to Kweichow
        3 infantry moved from Kiangsu to Anhwe
        2 fighters moved from Siam to French Indo China
        4 bombers moved from 38 Sea Zone to French Indo China
        1 fighter moved from French Indo China to Japan

    Place Units - Japanese
        1 destroyer placed in 6 Sea Zone
        1 factory_minor placed in Queensland
        1 destroyer placed in 62 Sea Zone
        2 armour placed in New South Wales
        1 mech_infantry placed in French Indo China
        3 infantry placed in Kiangsu
        2 infantry placed in Shantung

    Turn Complete - Japanese
        Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 14
            Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 20 Sea Zone. Rolls: 3,1
            Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 19 Sea Zone. Rolls: 4,6,2,4
            Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 6 Sea Zone. Rolls: 2,5,6,1,2,6,1,5,1,4,4,6,1,1,3,1,1,5,5,2,3,4,2,2,3,3,6,3,1
        Japanese collect 30 PUs (14 lost to blockades); end with 31 PUs
        Objective Japanese 6 Home Islands: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 3 PUs; end with 34 PUs
        Objective Japanese 3 Control Honolulu Or Sydney Or Calcutta Or Western United States: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 39 PUs
        Turning on Edit Mode
        EDIT: Removing units owned by Neutral_True from Afghanistan: 1 infantry
        EDIT: Removing units owned by Russians from Novosibirsk: 1 infantry
        EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Chinese regular : -0.33
Americans regular : 0.50
Japanese regular : 0.67
UK_Pacific regular : 0.67

Savegame

well, I managed a hit but was killed. Doubt I will get to the allied turn tonight, but if there are any adjustments to Japan as a result of that, just post them.

@cyanight said in L20 cyanight(axis) vs farmboy(Allies+16) BM3.3:

@ksmckay Here is a quote on page 11

"Strict neutrals are treated in exactly the same way as
unfriendly neutrals, with one exception. An attack by either
alliance on a strict neutral territory (whether successful or
not) will result in all remaining strict neutrals immediately
becoming pro-Allies or pro-Axis, depending on who violated
the strict neutral’s neutrality. "

None of that changes anything, not sure what that is supposed to add. Pro axis or pro aliies is still neutral.

I don’t think I’ve typically played this here the way the rules intend. We would actually need to edit out all the neutral inf in afghanistan and then edit in inf of the power of your choice. I’m fine with that actually, if you wanted to do that and adjust Japan’s turn (if that was the power you chose).

I suppose I might want to rethink the Soviet ncm if that is what you wanted to do. Not sure I’d want to leave those mechs, armor exposed there.

@farmboy said in L20 cyanight(axis) vs farmboy(Allies+16) BM3.3:

I don’t think I’ve typically played this here the way the rules intend. We would actually need to edit out all the neutral inf in afghanistan and then edit in inf of the power of your choice. I’m fine with that actually, if you wanted to do that and adjust Japan’s turn (if that was the power you chose).

In the board game, you need a way to show that there are fewer inf than the graphics indicate. so if you attack afghanistan with russia and kill 1 inf, and then retreat, you need a way to indicate that there are three left for the rest of the game (and that it is in the new non neutral state). So the rules tell you to take any powers inf units (since in the board game there are no neutral colored units). But they are still independent regardless of what color pieces you use. They cant go anywhere or do anything. Opposing power can attack them at a later time or an allied power can ncm a land unit in and grab them same as if they were still friendly neutral. Only difference is that air units can fly over the territory.

If the attack upon the formerly neutral territory is
unsuccessful (the territory is not captured), any remaining
defending units stay in the territory but can’t move. The
territory remains uncontrolled (place a national control
marker on it face down to indicate its new status), but units
from the side it’s now allied with can move into it and take
control of it and its remaining units in the same way as if it
were a friendly neutral.

TripleA makes the replacing with power of your choice unnecessary, since tripleA has neutral unit graphics. And tripleA makes you DOW on neutrals just to make game mechanics easier (converting all strict neutrals into friendly neutrals or unfriendly neutrals). Its not a rule, just something that makes it easier for tripleA to deal with how it allows or disallows certain things. And a reminder, that tripleA still messes up quite a few of the neutral rules about flying over (unless its fixed in latest version).

@cyanight said in L20 cyanight(axis) vs farmboy(Allies+16) BM3.3:

Attacking a neutral territory doesn’t make it not neutral. All it does is change the type of neutrality if it was a strict neutral.

It does though. It says in rules, it makes it allied with opposite power. It becomes its own independent power. But it cant move. But the neutral rules about air units flying over it go away. But those units cant do anything. And same as friendly neutrals, friendly real powers can NCM in and take control of the units. Its not neutral though. But every other territory that hasnt been attacked is still neutral, even if its friendly or unfriendly neutral.

So in this case, afghanistan becomes non neutral, 3 or 4 units remain there that cant move, but anybody can fly over it since its not neutral. Allies can attack it or axis can NCM a unit and take control. This is assuming russia attacked with 1 inf. Then the russian ftr can fly over it during NCM (as can any other power).

Thanks @ksmckay . I think I’m finally approaching clarity here.

So it looks to me that we can go ahead with this with the adjustments from the combat in Afghanistan. But @cyanight if you want us to get a ruling from gamerman to be sure, we can do that too. Obviously, the number of air I can have in India could be quite consequential for your next set of turns. And it is not just the Soviet fighter but potentially the US fighters in the Urals that are impacted by this.