We need an allied playbook.

@weddingsinger let’s say you attack on US3, that gives you 2x Ftr’s and 5x Bmbrs (4x Bmbrs bought on US1 and now stationed at QL, the rest don’t reach).

That gives you zero chance on 2BB, 1CR, 1DD 2CV and 2Ftr2TacB. of the IJN.

I think you need a better plan 😉

@aequitas-et-veritas said in We need an allied playbook.:

@weddingsinger let’s say you attack on US3, that gives you 2x Ftr’s and 5x Bmbrs (4x Bmbrs bought on US1 and now stationed at QL, the rest don’t reach).

That gives you zero chance on 2BB, 1CR, 1DD 2CV and 2Ftr2TacB. of the IJN.

I think you need a better plan 😉

It gives you 4 or 5 fighters, 1 tactical, 4 bombers, 1BB, 1CV, 2CR, 2DD, 1 sub. All planes that US starts with can reach. And then another 3 fighters, 1 CR, and either 3 subs or DDs via ANZAC

And if it forces Japan to keep its entire fleet together and choose between losing transports or not, that’s the point… To either be able to hit Japan hard or to force Japan to slow down. If they slow down, India survives, they make less income. If they’re careless, you can kill some Japanese fleet.

@weddingsinger you may not count any US ships in since they can simply be blocked.

Two more Ftrs don’t change much in that scenario.

What if, instead of the money islands, you went for the throat. 100 % PAC build. Original pieces plus 2 round of sub building, one round of bombers. Turn 1 huddle off o
San Fran, t2 Hawaii, t3 Midway or within 2 spaces, 4 Tokyo bay? Might accomplish same goals.

@crockett36 said in We need an allied playbook.:

What if, instead of the money islands, you went for the throat. 100 % PAC build. Original pieces plus 2 round of sub building, one round of bombers. Turn 1 huddle off o
San Fran, t2 Hawaii, t3 Midway or within 2 spaces, 4 Tokyo bay? Might accomplish same goals.

I’m trying a game with a harbor on Wake Island. Gives you almost unblockable access to sz6, can make Guam from there…Can still get back to Aleutians (but not Alaska) and, unlike Midway, can make it down to ANZAC in 1.

But I’m not sure it really accomplishes much beyond very aggressive posturing. Next stop is either wiping out sz6 or setting up a bomber haven on Iwo Jima

So clearly I have no issue with pummeling sz6. My main question always revolves around which way works best. The other idea is to hopefully sink a Japanese fleet group and some transports. Japan without transports is one you can block from a LOT of money…

Don’t get me wrong @weddingsinger , I like your idea(s).
It is just very hard to accomplish even when it sounds so easy.
But one thing you will def. achieve. You create an immense threat on the Pac. Theatre with a Bmbr swarm.
You are also able to snipe out further away positioned TT’s.
Bmbrs makeing it hard to position your self as Japan, but i suggest to buy and bring an additionl BB or CV.
After J3, Japan will spend more on Navy and focousing on a 50/50 Land units/Naval units buy startegy.

@aequitas-et-veritas While sniping poorly defended transports is one goal, mostly its to slow down Japan.

Even if they block you, you hopefully force them to keep their fleet group together or risk having it sunk. So if they split up at all or head over to Calcutta, they put themselves at risk to lose more significant assets since it leaves them out of position.

1st game test of naval base at Wake is going well. Russia eventually took Korea so the U.S. could bomb Japan, fighters landed to help protect Korea, and U.S. navy retreated to Hawaii using blockers. This leave the money islands for ANZAC and Japan is only making in the 40s on J3/J4/J5

@weddingsinger @aequitas-et-veritas After a year of designing new KJFs, I feel our energy is better spent on KGF, because that is the only way to disrupt the basic game dynamic (Germany goes for a quick moscow kill).

Still, without a bid, it cannot develop quickly enough to stop Germany–the pieces needed to kill Moscow are already built before USA joins the war.

I’ve just started playing AA50, and the dynamic in that game is completely different because of 2 things–

there is a double-shuck to the UK: 1 turn direct from USA and units can be handed from fleet to fleet via the UK land square so transports don’t need to cross back to reload.
AND
The Russian income and geometry means a quick, pat, “all in against Moscow” strategy will fail because Germany has to dedicate major resources to defending France and Germany (without the benefit of the canal rule/Denmark)

If Japan has China, the Middle East and perhaps much of the Soviet Far East and yet the Allies have control of much of Europe, who will win the game? Have you just reset the game to a struggle between East and West or won the game in extra innings?

@taamvan i agree that more often Ally Players, go after Germany first.
So the question will be:
What is the approbiate approach??

• should we consider a portion of the bid for US?
• what is doable with the starting US pieces?
• shuck-shuck to London first before Normandy?
• what else are we missing??

@taamvan @crockett36 I like the way you’re framing the problem; it’s interesting to think about whether the USA can actually prevent Germany from taking Moscow. I think Germany needs at least four turns of building to take Moscow – something like mechs and tanks on G1, G2, and G3, followed by bombers on G4. If you send all of that directly at Moscow, with no relevant Allied bid, then with normal dice you can take Moscow on G5 or G6.

The earliest the USA can arrive in a way that forces Germany to pay attention is what, US4? Even with a J1 DoW, the USA doesn’t start the game with enough of an Atlantic fleet to be a serious threat, so they have to build one on USA1. On USA2, that fleet can usually move to Gibraltar. On USA3, that fleet can move to the English Channel if you’re serious about KGF, but is probably still not strong enough to move to the North Sea, so you need to wait until a second turn of US Atlantic fleet builds can arrive before you to move to the sea zone outside Western Germany and Denmark, which would be USA4. Germany has to pay attention to that because if you take Denmark then the UK can hit Berlin on UK4.

If you have a J3 DoW, the USA can build up its Atlantic fleet on US1 and US2. You can’t move to Gibraltar until US3, but if you invest heavily enough in the Atlantic then your fleet is big enough that you can probably still move the fleet outside Western Germany on US4.

So our intuitions are different somewhere, I think. It seems to me that if the USA and UK go hard-core in the Atlantic, they can pose an existential threat to Germany on turn 4, but Germany needs to buy bombers on turn 4, not defense for the western front. I guess if Germany is rich enough then they could potentially do both, but a competent Russian player normally shouldn’t be letting Germany collect more than about 50 IPCs on G3.

Where do we disagree? Do you think Germany can knock out Moscow with only 3 turns of builds? Do you think the USA can’t build enough fleet to take the W. German sea zone on turn 4? Do you think Germany can sort of split the difference, buy some fighters on G4 and G5, and take Moscow on turn 6 or 7?

Dave’s most successful strategy involves securing Norway and Finland with the US, then building a factory on both. If moscow falls, usa can get or at least boggle the third Leningrad factory.

Uk should get its first factory on turn 2 and its second on turn 3. That’s really all it can power…and barely…Add in tanks from SA and its too expensive (mechs?) Persia is the only production square that is 1 move with fighters to moscow without an AB.

I also recommend the following mod

Urals 1 Tank 1 Fighter
The following bonuses are reduced from 5 to 3; Leningrad, Stalingrad, Moscow, Caucasus
(Capital Rule the second time a capital is captured, the cash is destroyed)

The pieces in Urals can’t alter the opener too much, and are themey (tankograd)
The bonus reductions have no effect at first, but prevent germany from reaching overwhelming income (they do need to power 4 eastern factories in the late game but post-fall of moscow, they can!)

@Argothair Dave also has started G1. This saves a full turn, if russia doesnt push him back. The only way this can be achieved is by leaving UK with 1 fleet, which is bad in the long term but can’t make its effect felt until after Moscow is about to die. The US can’t really choose when to cross, but as Dave and I discussed last night, there is no further reason for G3/G4/J3/J4 plans…they are sometimes tempting alternatives that end up making the allies too powerful. Time is not on the axis side; in AAZ 42.2 and Global they have to win quickly or lose the long game. The imbalance of the OOB game makes this point all the more important–plans that do not exploit the diplomacy rules and go for a quick clench are far more “balanced” (favorable to the allies)…at this point we’ve tried them all…

@taamvan I hear your frustration, and as you and I have discussed before, there are many advantages to your mod. In the meantime, since this is a playbook thread and not a house rules thread, can we get into a little more detail about the German attack you’re discussing?

Like, you’re saying a G1 DoW saves a full turn. OK, fine, so what is Germany building, and when, and at what point do they have critical mass to capture Moscow? Like, with a G1 DoW can Germany take Moscow on G4? With what forces, specifically? 20 mechs? 30 mechs? 40 mechs? To evaluate your claim that the USA can’t reach Germany in time to punish it for taking Moscow, I need to know more about your German attack on Moscow. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I do want to try to conduct my own analysis and find out what I think, rather than just taking your word for it that all is lost and everything is doomed.

dave rarely buys mechs. he buys strats, then tanks, then more strats. With the can opener and G1, its an R5 attack the allies cant stop.

attack 110 only
rush the russian fleet and wreck it so it cant block
move up 1 strip per turn
hes on you G5 with a 80%+ whether you counterattack or not, and regardless of what you built

I also suggest mark movels VC card…it makes the game fun and well contested until a clear turn (i think its 10 turns). i really dont like house rules, even my own, but after 199 games, its clear that all the versions are quite imbalanced (except dday)

If you want to link to the VC card, I’d be happy to check it out.

I think my response to that kind of strategy, assuming a G1/J1 DoW, would be to not build any factories in Egypt, Iraq, or Persia, and instead just focus all Allied efforts on taking Berlin. Don’t scramble, spend the whole UK1 buy on buffing up the fleet that Berlin didn’t sink, then buy transports UK2 after you see the G2 tank buy. If the tanks go east on G3, Western Germany should fall on UK3; the G1 strat buy won’t help defend it. Or, if Germany collects all available resources to hold Western Germany, then you should be able to snap up Norway, Normandy, and Belgium for very cheap, and then you get ready for the Denmark-Berlin punch on UK/US4. It’s totally OK to trade Moscow for Berlin!

Have you tried that already? How did it turn out?

@Argothair Id say thats not remotely possible…germany is very difficult to take. You can make them blink…but russia is so weak that germany can do both. The money they take from russia makes it an easy deal and dave often has $100 after moscow falls (he saves about 20-30 the previous turn) that can imm be used to build a defense.

if russia could somehow survive until turn 8 then this pressure might equal out but the money germany gets when it falls seals the deal

are you on the fb axa group curated by misha keeler? i joined this year and posting variants, sculpts, and most of the ppl here are also there (as are the house rulesets and custom cards)

@taamvan So I think the response I’m imagining is meant to take Berlin before Germany can build with the Moscow money. If Germany is targeting a G5 Moscow attack then you can take Berlin through UK5, and Germany won’t ever be able to spend 100 IPCs.

You and I and many others agree that the Global 40 OOB is unbalanced without a bid, so we’re not necessarily talking about trying to win with no bid. But if you have either a bid or the extra cash from Balanced Mod, I think you could stack enough infantry in Moscow that Germany can’t both take Moscow G5 and hold Berlin against an all-out US+UK frontal assault on northwest Europe.

Maybe Berlin can pivot in a way that would defeat the Allies; e.g., when you see the Allies coming for Berlin, pause and build some infantry, and settle for a G6 attack on Moscow that will still have superior momentum. I’m not sure, though. I think maybe if you build almost nothing but tanks and bombers, then you set yourself up for a do-or-die on G5 where after G5 Russia has enough infantry in Moscow to hold. You have other problems, like Japan will be a monster by then, and US spending will have to shift to the Pacific to keep Sydney and Honolulu out of Japanese hands. So I’m not saying the G1 attack is a bad idea for Germany; just that there are probably some effective counters for people who are interested in thinking outside the usual confines of “rush Anglo-American reinforcements to Moscow.” I hear you that Germany is very difficult to take in a normal game, but the attack plan you’re describing doesn’t sound to me like a normal game. It sounds like Germany is diverting all of the assets that usually make Germany a tough nut to crack toward heading east with a massive, fast hammer-blow.

By analogy, usually it’s crazy to talk about Japan taking San Francisco, but if you literally send the US Pacific fleet through the Panama Canal and build nothing in the Western US, well, now it’s a serious threat.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree on all this stuff, or we could try it out in a friendly playtest on TripleA sometime.

I’m not on Facebook; I don’t like their business model. If you want to send me any of your custom stuff, I’m happy to look at it; you’ve got my e-mail. If not, that’s fine too.

Cheers,
Argo

@taamvan I m finding the factory to be too expensive and too ineffective for the Americans. What I’m aiming for is the ability to make multiple landings on European coasts at will, creating a defacto meat grinder on the Western front. The formula I’m arriving at is a minimum of 8 air planes and three bombers in the theater supporting the landing of 4 to 6 infantry with bombardment from 2 or 3 ships starting turn 4.

@taamvan what you are describing is the need of an bid for Allies.
That is the reason why we play with high bids here.
So to sum it all up.
Axis win very often with no bids.

The Allied playbook should therefore adress an high bid or to BM3 to keep it balanced.