Should we make better rules for invadable neutrals? (1940)

I go the Historical way as much as I can in my games. All strict neutrals on there own with armys and a few destroyers.
The only strict neutral that can be activated is my 2 Mongolia territories by Russia. They can activate 1 territory per turn. They receive 1 icp and 1 inf per territory. Japan attacks Russia then Mongolia goes to Russia automatically. Thats it.
The rest you need to attack and conquer for your future plans.

Narvick we do have in another game where you add 1 inf per 2 turns but pro neutrals only.
I may go with add 1 inf every 2 turns to all strict neutrals.

Mongolia is the only neutral in G40 that has tried to do unique rules but it’s clear Mongolia rules are only in place to try to get the USSR-Japanese non aggression pact in play. Iran is by far the most annoying neutral, it’s pro allies which makes me laugh every time I say it.

USSR and Mongolia had a agreement that said USSR and Mongolia would be allowed to be in each others territories and mesh units together for as long as needed.
Aug 31 1939 they did another attack on Japan troops with a Barrage of Art and air bombings.
Then signed USSR-Japan pact Sept. 15 1939. Plus Mongolia provided millions of horses and 1 in 4 Great Coats for winters for Russia.

So what im saying is that Russia should get to move into ea Mongolia territory, control it and get the icp values towards income. But the Mongolia ground troops cannot leave Mongolia territories (but can move inside there territories only) ever unless Japan breaks the Pact and now they can attack with Russian troops.
This would help Russia in income for that extra need back in Moscow defense.

Good idea for a Russia boost

@Caesar:

Iran is by far the most annoying neutral, it’s pro allies which makes me laugh every time I say it.

I imagine that Iran, a.k.a. Persia, is designated as pro-Allies in the game to reflect the fact that in real life the UK and the USSR jointly invaded it in 1941 to carry out what today is called “regime change”.  In A&A Global 1940, “pro-X” status is basically an invitation to X to walk into the country and place it under X’s direct control, which is what happened in 1941 when the British and the Soviets began to worry that Reza Shah, the ruler of oil-rich Iran, was a little too friendly with the Axis powers for their taste.

Here’s one thought for re-organizing the neutral activation rules: each team can automatically activate one favorable neutral per full round, but you cannot move troops into a country to activate it. Persia, Argentina, and Siam would all be considered pro-Axis neutrals under this rule.

So, on each round, the Axis team could activate Finland, or Bulgaria, or Iraq, or Argentina, or Siam, or perhaps a French colony after Paris has fallen. But not more than one per round – if the Germans activate Finland on G1, that means the Japanese can’t activate Siam until J2.

Likewise, on each round, the Allied team could activate Brazil, or Greece, or Yugoslavia, or Mongolia – but not more than one per round. If the British activate Greece on UK1, that means the Americans can’t activate Brazil until US2.

If you invade any true neutral country, all other true neutral countries become favorable to your opponent…but this is not as bad as it normally would be, because your opponent can only activate one neutral country per round. So if Germany invades Turkey, then, yes, Sweden might join the Allies that round, and Saudi Arabia might join the Allies the next round – but it’s not like the Allies suddenly pick up 12 IPCs of income from massive worldwide defections to the Allied cause. It feels a little more plausible and a little more balanced, to me. You could still beef/bulk up true neutral defensive armies if you want.

For a little extra fun, you could add a rule that if the Axis occupy Paris and Normandy (but not Marseilles) ala the Vichy rule from Balanced Mod, then all French colonies that have no non-French Allied or Axis land units in them drop out of the war and become favorable to both sides at once. If it’s your turn, and your faction hasn’t used its “activate a neutral ability yet” you can activate one French colony and gain its income and any French units that were stationed there when Paris fell. So, maybe the Allies activate Morocco to use it as a landing ground; maybe the Axis grab French West Africa and start marching east through central Africa to be a nuisance…or, maybe it’s the other way around! Or maybe one or both teams are too busy grabbing other neutrals to bother with the French colonies for a few turns. It adds a bit more strategic depth.

@CWO:

@Caesar:

Iran is by far the most annoying neutral, it’s pro allies which makes me laugh every time I say it.

I imagine that Iran, a.k.a. Persia, is designated as pro-Allies in the game to reflect the fact that in real life the UK and the USSR jointly invaded it in 1941 to carry out what today is called “regime change”.  In A&A Global 1940, “pro-X” status is basically an invitation to X to walk into the country and place it under X’s direct control, which is what happened in 1941 when the British and the Soviets began to worry that Reza Shah, the ruler of oil-rich Iran, was a little too friendly with the Axis powers for their taste.

I would buy into that if every Pro-Allies territory in G40 actually reflected that. Every pro-Allies were allies backed but didn’t pull the trigger for whatever reason, each nation differs there for it is insulting for Iran to be placed under this same idea.

The idea of pro- neutrals at the start of a game is silly. All neutrals should start the game as true neutrals, and only after being attacked, they change status to anti-the attacker, or pro- anyone who can help.

Finland start as true neutral in 1939, but after Russia attack it and capture Viborg, Finland now turns anti Russia, and will join the first power that is anti-Russia and able to get there. UK wants to  help, but are not allowed freedom of movement through neutral Norway and neutral Sweden. Germany is able to get a unit to Finland, but can only do it after they attack Russia and prove they are anti-Russia too.

Romania start as a true neutral in 1939, but after Russia attack it and capture Bessarabia, Romania now turns anti-Russia, and will join the first power that is anti-Russia and able to get there. UK cant reach, but Germany can after they attack Russia.

Greece start as a true neutral in 1939, but after Italy attacks it, Greece now turns anti-Axis, and join the first power that are able to move units there. Look at the order, UK did not move into Greece before the Italian attack. Italy had to attack Greece and force it to join the war. Only when no longer a neutral, its friends can move into it.

Persia was a neutral too. Russia and UK had to attack it. Persia only have 2 infantry so it should be easy, but because of playability and the designers effort to make the game scripted, he obviously want you to attack Iraq too, and then you need the Persian infantry. If you ask me, Iraq and Persia should be true neutrals and have 1 inf each. Only if somebody attack part of it, then it will join the other side.

This is the pattern, and this should be the neutrals rule

We play these neutral rules along with CDG 1939 set up.  It seems to work pretty well.  Playing a game where Germany has invaded Turkey (at some cost) but now has direct access to the Caucasus and a 3 IPC factory and took Saudi Arabia for 2 IPC bonus.

The CDG 1939 v3 setup is pretty fun and has become our standard.  As mentioned before, a Vichy option would be fun too.

@piscolar:

Here’s what I did. While it’s pretty much inconceivable all neutral countries would go to war if one of them was invaded, it’s NOT inconceivable some would have alliances, regional in nature and among countries with shared interests. Excluding Mongolia (whose rules I left the same), I created 4 alliances among the remaining neutrals. No, not everything in these alliances make sense (Switzerland and Afghanistan would never go to war unless they were invaded), but it adds a new dimension to the game. Also, invaded neutral countries have an impact on geopolitics, so countries need to think carefully before attacking. It is risky and costly, however, in some cases there is value in doing it - unlike in the actual game.

Here’s the way it works: each alliance has one country that is the center of it all. This is the real gem - it either has the most IPC value or strategic value. The four countries are Sweden, Turkey, Argentina, and Spain. These countries each have a minor IPC and a proper military. This was easy to pick out, as these countries all had at least 2IPCs in value and 4+ call-ups. So I took their initial call-ups, and added 40IPCs worth of soldiers/bases for Argentina (4), 50 to Sweden and Spain (6), and 60 to Turkey (8). I based the units on what such a country would reasonably have. Sweden had advanced industry and an effective navy but hardly any air force in 1940; Spain was along the lines of Italy in land power, Turkey was mostly struggling to modernize but had fortifications and a small but professional british-trained air force (insignificant navy), Argentina had a small army and navy (though far better than its neighbors) and a great port.

Here are the official rules and set up:

If you attack a single neutral country, not all of them will become hostile - only ones they have a mutual defense pact with. There are four alliances on the map; an attack against one of these members is an attack on all.

Mongolia is unaffected by these changes.

If a territory/alliance is attacked, it will immediately join a specified member of the opposite side.

Note: Each South American neutral “country” for our purposes has been combined. For example, Venezuela is now a part of Ecuador and Colombia. “Greater Venezuela” does not receive an IPC bonus for this, however it does receive an additional infantry unit per added territory. So instead of spawning +2 infantry when attacked, it will create +4. Same rules apply for Greater Argentina (Argentina/Uruguay/Paraguay) and Greater Chile (Chile, Bolivia, Peru).

Finally, note that Sierra Leone is UK territory and Liberia becomes a US territory once it enters the war. They are not neutral territories.

Starting Neutral Territory Units:

South American Alliance:
Greater Venezuela: 4 Infantry
Greater Chile: 4 Infantry
Greater Argentina: 6 Infantry + 3 Artillery +  1 AAA + Naval Base + Destroyer (Sea Zone 85) + Minor IPC

If attacked by the Allies, the South American Alliance joins Germany. If attacked by the Axis, the South American Alliance joins the US. All of the South American Alliance’s units and factories immediately become controlled by that player. An Axis attack on the South American Alliance is considered a declaration of war against the US. The US may not attack the South American Alliance until war against Axis has been declared.

Total Alliance IPC Value: 6

Iberian Alliance:
Spain: 8 Infantry + 3 Artillery + 2 Tanks + 2 AAA + 1 Fighter + Minor IPC
Portugal: 2 Infantry
Mozambique: 2 Infantry
Angola: 2 Infantry
Rio de Oro
Portuguese Guinea

If attacked by the Allies, the Iberian Alliance joins Germany or Italy. If attacked by the Axis, the Iberian Alliance joins the UK (European Economy) or France. All of its units and factories immediately become controlled by that player. An Axis attack against Spain is considered a declaration of war against the US.

Total Alliance IPC Value: 5

Swedish-Swiss Alliance:
Sweden: 6 Infantry + 4 Artillery + 2 Tanks + 1 Mech Infantry + 2 AAA + Destroyer (Sea Zone 113) + Minor IPC
Switzerland: 2 Infantry

If attacked by the Allies, Sweden joins Germany and Switzerland joins Germany or Italy. If attacked by the Axis, Sweden joins the UK (European Economy) and Switzerland joins France. All of their units and factories immediately become controlled by those players. An Axis attack against Sweden or Switzerland is considered a declaration of War against Russia and the US.

Total IPC Value: 3

Islamic Alliance:
Turkey: 9 Infantry + 4 Artillery + 1 Tank + 1 Fighter + 2 AAA + Fortification + Minor IPC
Saudi Arabia: 2 Infantry
Afghanistan: 4 Infantry

If attacked by the Allies, Turkey and Saudi Arabia join Germany or Italy, and Afghanistan joins Germany. If attacked by the Axis, Turkey and Afghanistan join Russia or UK (European Economy), and Saudi Arabia joins the UK (European Economy). All of the Islamic Alliance’s units and factories immediately become controlled by that player. An Axis attack on the Islamic Alliance is the equivalent of a declaration of war on Russia, the UK, ANZAC, and France. Russia may not attack the Islamic Alliance until war against Germany has been declared.

Additionally, the Bosporus Straight is considered a universal national objective worth an additional +1 IPC to the player controlling it.

Note: Italian and German national objectives include Saudi Arabia in their quest for Strategic Oil Reserves. If controlled, they gain an additional +2 IPCs such as in Northwest Persia, Iraq, and Persia.

Total Alliance IPC Value: 5

@Moffett:

We play these neutral rules along with CDG 1939 set up.  It seems to work pretty well.  Playing a game where Germany has invaded Turkey (at some cost) but now has direct access to the Caucasus and a 3 IPC factory and took Saudi Arabia for 2 IPC bonus.

The CDG 1939 v3 setup is pretty fun and has become our standard.  As mentioned before, a Vichy option would be fun too.

@piscolar:

Here’s what I did. While it’s pretty much inconceivable all neutral countries would go to war if one of them was invaded, it’s NOT inconceivable some would have alliances, regional in nature and among countries with shared interests. Excluding Mongolia (whose rules I left the same), I created 4 alliances among the remaining neutrals. No, not everything in these alliances make sense (Switzerland and Afghanistan would never go to war unless they were invaded), but it adds a new dimension to the game. Also, invaded neutral countries have an impact on geopolitics, so countries need to think carefully before attacking. It is risky and costly, however, in some cases there is value in doing it - unlike in the actual game.

Here’s the way it works: each alliance has one country that is the center of it all. This is the real gem - it either has the most IPC value or strategic value. The four countries are Sweden, Turkey, Argentina, and Spain. These countries each have a minor IPC and a proper military. This was easy to pick out, as these countries all had at least 2IPCs in value and 4+ call-ups. So I took their initial call-ups, and added 40IPCs worth of soldiers/bases for Argentina (4), 50 to Sweden and Spain (6), and 60 to Turkey (8). I based the units on what such a country would reasonably have. Sweden had advanced industry and an effective navy but hardly any air force in 1940; Spain was along the lines of Italy in land power, Turkey was mostly struggling to modernize but had fortifications and a small but professional british-trained air force (insignificant navy), Argentina had a small army and navy (though far better than its neighbors) and a great port.

Here are the official rules and set up:

If you attack a single neutral country, not all of them will become hostile - only ones they have a mutual defense pact with. There are four alliances on the map; an attack against one of these members is an attack on all.

Mongolia is unaffected by these changes.

If a territory/alliance is attacked, it will immediately join a specified member of the opposite side.

Note: Each South American neutral “country” for our purposes has been combined. For example, Venezuela is now a part of Ecuador and Colombia. “Greater Venezuela” does not receive an IPC bonus for this, however it does receive an additional infantry unit per added territory. So instead of spawning +2 infantry when attacked, it will create +4. Same rules apply for Greater Argentina (Argentina/Uruguay/Paraguay) and Greater Chile (Chile, Bolivia, Peru).

Finally, note that Sierra Leone is UK territory and Liberia becomes a US territory once it enters the war. They are not neutral territories.

Starting Neutral Territory Units:

South American Alliance:
Greater Venezuela: 4 Infantry
Greater Chile: 4 Infantry
Greater Argentina: 6 Infantry + 3 Artillery +  1 AAA + Naval Base + Destroyer (Sea Zone 85) + Minor IPC

If attacked by the Allies, the South American Alliance joins Germany. If attacked by the Axis, the South American Alliance joins the US. All of the South American Alliance’s units and factories immediately become controlled by that player. An Axis attack on the South American Alliance is considered a declaration of war against the US. The US may not attack the South American Alliance until war against Axis has been declared.

Total Alliance IPC Value: 6

Iberian Alliance:
Spain: 8 Infantry + 3 Artillery + 2 Tanks + 2 AAA + 1 Fighter + Minor IPC
Portugal: 2 Infantry
Mozambique: 2 Infantry
Angola: 2 Infantry
Rio de Oro
Portuguese Guinea

If attacked by the Allies, the Iberian Alliance joins Germany or Italy. If attacked by the Axis, the Iberian Alliance joins the UK (European Economy) or France. All of its units and factories immediately become controlled by that player. An Axis attack against Spain is considered a declaration of war against the US.

Total Alliance IPC Value: 5

Swedish-Swiss Alliance:
Sweden: 6 Infantry + 4 Artillery + 2 Tanks + 1 Mech Infantry + 2 AAA + Destroyer (Sea Zone 113) + Minor IPC
Switzerland: 2 Infantry

If attacked by the Allies, Sweden joins Germany and Switzerland joins Germany or Italy. If attacked by the Axis, Sweden joins the UK (European Economy) and Switzerland joins France. All of their units and factories immediately become controlled by those players. An Axis attack against Sweden or Switzerland is considered a declaration of War against Russia and the US.

Total IPC Value: 3

Islamic Alliance:
Turkey: 9 Infantry + 4 Artillery + 1 Tank + 1 Fighter + 2 AAA + Fortification + Minor IPC
Saudi Arabia: 2 Infantry
Afghanistan: 4 Infantry

If attacked by the Allies, Turkey and Saudi Arabia join Germany or Italy, and Afghanistan joins Germany. If attacked by the Axis, Turkey and Afghanistan join Russia or UK (European Economy), and Saudi Arabia joins the UK (European Economy). All of the Islamic Alliance’s units and factories immediately become controlled by that player. An Axis attack on the Islamic Alliance is the equivalent of a declaration of war on Russia, the UK, ANZAC, and France. Russia may not attack the Islamic Alliance until war against Germany has been declared.

Additionally, the Bosporus Straight is considered a universal national objective worth an additional +1 IPC to the player controlling it.

Note: Italian and German national objectives include Saudi Arabia in their quest for Strategic Oil Reserves. If controlled, they gain an additional +2 IPCs such as in Northwest Persia, Iraq, and Persia.

Total Alliance IPC Value: 5

Well I love everything about this.  I think the “alliances” make sense and are easy to remember.  It gives both the element of greater standing armies to persuade against the decision to attack and also keeps the element of neighboring retaliation to further the strategic plus and minuses.

@carsonbparker said in Should we make better rules for invadable neutrals? (1940):

@Moffett:

We play these neutral rules along with CDG 1939 set up.  It seems to work pretty well.  Playing a game where Germany has invaded Turkey (at some cost) but now has direct access to the Caucasus and a 3 IPC factory and took Saudi Arabia for 2 IPC bonus.

The CDG 1939 v3 setup is pretty fun and has become our standard.  As mentioned before, a Vichy option would be fun too.

@piscolar:

Here’s what I did. While it’s pretty much inconceivable all neutral countries would go to war if one of them was invaded, it’s NOT inconceivable some would have alliances, regional in nature and among countries with shared interests. Excluding Mongolia (whose rules I left the same), I created 4 alliances among the remaining neutrals. No, not everything in these alliances make sense (Switzerland and Afghanistan would never go to war unless they were invaded), but it adds a new dimension to the game. Also, invaded neutral countries have an impact on geopolitics, so countries need to think carefully before attacking. It is risky and costly, however, in some cases there is value in doing it - unlike in the actual game.

Here’s the way it works: each alliance has one country that is the center of it all. This is the real gem - it either has the most IPC value or strategic value. The four countries are Sweden, Turkey, Argentina, and Spain. These countries each have a minor IPC and a proper military. This was easy to pick out, as these countries all had at least 2IPCs in value and 4+ call-ups. So I took their initial call-ups, and added 40IPCs worth of soldiers/bases for Argentina (4), 50 to Sweden and Spain (6), and 60 to Turkey (8). I based the units on what such a country would reasonably have. Sweden had advanced industry and an effective navy but hardly any air force in 1940; Spain was along the lines of Italy in land power, Turkey was mostly struggling to modernize but had fortifications and a small but professional british-trained air force (insignificant navy), Argentina had a small army and navy (though far better than its neighbors) and a great port.

Here are the official rules and set up:

If you attack a single neutral country, not all of them will become hostile - only ones they have a mutual defense pact with. There are four alliances on the map; an attack against one of these members is an attack on all.

Mongolia is unaffected by these changes.

If a territory/alliance is attacked, it will immediately join a specified member of the opposite side.

Note: Each South American neutral “country” for our purposes has been combined. For example, Venezuela is now a part of Ecuador and Colombia. “Greater Venezuela” does not receive an IPC bonus for this, however it does receive an additional infantry unit per added territory. So instead of spawning +2 infantry when attacked, it will create +4. Same rules apply for Greater Argentina (Argentina/Uruguay/Paraguay) and Greater Chile (Chile, Bolivia, Peru).

Finally, note that Sierra Leone is UK territory and Liberia becomes a US territory once it enters the war. They are not neutral territories.

Starting Neutral Territory Units:

South American Alliance:
Greater Venezuela: 4 Infantry
Greater Chile: 4 Infantry
Greater Argentina: 6 Infantry + 3 Artillery +  1 AAA + Naval Base + Destroyer (Sea Zone 85) + Minor IPC

If attacked by the Allies, the South American Alliance joins Germany. If attacked by the Axis, the South American Alliance joins the US. All of the South American Alliance’s units and factories immediately become controlled by that player. An Axis attack on the South American Alliance is considered a declaration of war against the US. The US may not attack the South American Alliance until war against Axis has been declared.

Total Alliance IPC Value: 6

Iberian Alliance:
Spain: 8 Infantry + 3 Artillery + 2 Tanks + 2 AAA + 1 Fighter + Minor IPC
Portugal: 2 Infantry
Mozambique: 2 Infantry
Angola: 2 Infantry
Rio de Oro
Portuguese Guinea

If attacked by the Allies, the Iberian Alliance joins Germany or Italy. If attacked by the Axis, the Iberian Alliance joins the UK (European Economy) or France. All of its units and factories immediately become controlled by that player. An Axis attack against Spain is considered a declaration of war against the US.

Total Alliance IPC Value: 5

Swedish-Swiss Alliance:
Sweden: 6 Infantry + 4 Artillery + 2 Tanks + 1 Mech Infantry + 2 AAA + Destroyer (Sea Zone 113) + Minor IPC
Switzerland: 2 Infantry

If attacked by the Allies, Sweden joins Germany and Switzerland joins Germany or Italy. If attacked by the Axis, Sweden joins the UK (European Economy) and Switzerland joins France. All of their units and factories immediately become controlled by those players. An Axis attack against Sweden or Switzerland is considered a declaration of War against Russia and the US.

Total IPC Value: 3

Islamic Alliance:
Turkey: 9 Infantry + 4 Artillery + 1 Tank + 1 Fighter + 2 AAA + Fortification + Minor IPC
Saudi Arabia: 2 Infantry
Afghanistan: 4 Infantry

If attacked by the Allies, Turkey and Saudi Arabia join Germany or Italy, and Afghanistan joins Germany. If attacked by the Axis, Turkey and Afghanistan join Russia or UK (European Economy), and Saudi Arabia joins the UK (European Economy). All of the Islamic Alliance’s units and factories immediately become controlled by that player. An Axis attack on the Islamic Alliance is the equivalent of a declaration of war on Russia, the UK, ANZAC, and France. Russia may not attack the Islamic Alliance until war against Germany has been declared.

Additionally, the Bosporus Straight is considered a universal national objective worth an additional +1 IPC to the player controlling it.

Note: Italian and German national objectives include Saudi Arabia in their quest for Strategic Oil Reserves. If controlled, they gain an additional +2 IPCs such as in Northwest Persia, Iraq, and Persia.

Total Alliance IPC Value: 5

Well I love everything about this.  I think the “alliances” make sense and are easy to remember.  It gives both the element of greater standing armies to persuade against the decision to attack and also keeps the element of neighboring retaliation to further the strategic plus and minuses.

What are people’s current thoughts on this ? Would prefer game experience feedback as opposed to just theory, but all is welcome. :)

Added this as an option to the triplea mod “Charles de Gaulle 1939”.

I like the sounds of what @piscolar came up with as well. I may take a crack at it. It’s a might more involved from a triplea standpoint though

Well, after looking at this a bit, I feel that Switzerland should get an Artillery maybe an AAgun. Dock them 2 Infantry. Just would look cooler. South Americans as well. The ones with bigger armies. Won’t matter from a defensive standpoint, well the AA would, but one less reason to mess with the Swiss :)

So gave venezuela, Argentina and Switzerland a Artillery and a AAgun. Docked them 2 Infantry. Gave Chile a Artillery and minus one Infantry. Idk if S Americans had AA are not ? I’d assume so. Switzerland surely did. Well, idk for sure but, it seems incomprehensible that they didn’t. They all had Artillery. Idk about Saudi Arabia. Sure they had some Cavalry :)

Anyway, I Just used edit. Didn’t change the default. Next time you check in @Charles-de-Gaulle let me know what you think and anyone else as well :)

@barnee The Swiss had tons of anti-aircraft. Even though their air space was neutral the Swiss shot down over 30 aircraft during the war both on the axis and the allies if they drifted too far into Swiss air space. In the game I believe a fair assessment of the Swiss military should be around 7-8 infantry and a AAA .

@carsonbparker Thanks for the reply. I was just getting ready to look them up :) I used CDGs units, 6 inf, as a base, so they got 4 inf an artillery an a AAgun. I don’t see them getting attacked anyway. I mean it’s not worth anything and doesn’t do anything strategically, so…maybe a couple more infantry :)

It might be a little out of proportion to others though. Looks pretty cool with them :)

well my searching hasn’t turned up much. Questionable information at best :)

@CWO-Marc I know you posted some extensive stuff on Neutrals, which i stupidly didn’t bookmark :), do you have an opinion on the above South American Countries having anti air capabilities ? I can’t believe they didn’t. Well, I can, if given proof :relaxed:

I have yet to complete a full game, but I don’t see how Italy doesn’t dust UK Egypt. What can UK do ? Hmm…@Charles-de-Gaulle ?

Sorry i forgot Italy can’t move :)