I’m playing the global 1940 second edition. The rules say that any Japanese built manufacturing in Chinese territories is removed when China or another ally liberates the territory. They also say that the only non-Chinese territories China is allowed in are Kwangtung and Burma. In my current game, Japan captured both Kwangtung and India, and built manufacturing in Kwangtung. China liberated Kwangtung while India was still under Japanese control. In this case, the rules allow China to control Kwangtung until India is liberated, but what happens to the manufacturing in Kwangtung? I feel that the rules are very clear about Kwangtung not being a Chinese territory, therefore the manufacturing should stay. My opponent insists that because it is currently under Chinese control, that makes it a Chinese territory and the manufacturing is removed. So what’s the consensus? Does temporary control constitute the territory being Chinese for purposes of China specific rules? So long as India is under Japanese control, the manufacturing is removed and China is allowed to reinforce directly in that territory, or does the manufacturing stay and China cannot reinforce there? For what it’s worth, I’ll probably acquiesce and allow the manufacturing to be removed, and just insist that the rule stays the same in all further games, I don’t think it matters to my plans and I’m good with allowing China to reinforce there, but I was wondering what other people thought.
Hi yaz welcome to the site
My interpetation is the same as yours
But we’ll ping @Panther for added authority :)
@barnee
Also agree with your assessment. The key phrasing here establishes the condition for the rule being that the industrial complex is built on a Chinese territory, which in this case it is not.
If the rule were to say, any territory with an IC that “becomes a Chinese territory” (ie: by liberation or capture) then the OP’s friend would have a case.
@SeaYa Another key sentence is in the first paragraph quoted above:
Chinese territories on the game board have a Nationalist Chinese emblem on them.
Kwangtung does not have one, therefore it is not a Chinese territory. An industrial complex there would not be removed if China gains control, and China cannot mobilize new units there.
That’s an interesting point! The rules often refer to “originally controlled” territories, to which the national emblem markers are referenced, regardless of current occupation. I wondered if the phrase “Chinese territory”, without the explicit “original” verbiage allowed for a Chinese occupied territory to be considered Chinese.
I think it is a moot point in this case, as I believe the Chinese are restricted from building factories anyway, but an interesting point to consider: is a (insert power) territory only restricted to original territories when referenced in the rules, or, without the word “original” explicitly stated, does it also expand to include occupied albiet not original?
Very fun lessons in rule interpretation as good designers often are very careful with choice of words.
@SeaYa said in Need help determining the fate of manufacturing in Kwangtung:
That’s an interesting point! The rules often refer to “originally controlled” territories, to which the national emblem markers are referenced, regardless of current occupation. I wondered if the phrase “Chinese territory”, without the explicit “original” verbiage allowed for a Chinese occupied territory to be considered Chinese.
The sentence I quoted above seems pretty airtight, especially in the context of the rest of the section.
I think it is a moot point in this case, as I believe the Chinese are restricted from building factories anyway, but an interesting point to consider: is a (insert power) territory only restricted to original territories when referenced in the rules, or, without the word “original” explicitly stated, does it also expand to include occupied albiet not original?
I don’t believe there are any other such instances in the rules. In any case, I would say not, as the rules often also refer to “X-controlled” territories.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the quick responses. It looks like we’re going to move forward with not removing the manufacturing. The fact that everybody agreed that Kwangtung is a British territory and not subject to Chinese rules did it. Also, I think Japan was a little uneasy with China being able to reinforce there. In any case, I just wanted to say thank you to everyone that took the time to respond and share your opinion. This is only our second game, so we’re still working out all the fine points. I’m sure I’ll be back asking more opinions before it’s all said and done.
well just a FYI but Krieghound wrote the rulebook so there is no higher authority :)
