Thank you for taking the time to answer.
I hear your counterarguments. Only one I stick by, is Vichy happening end of G1. I am not sure anything the UK would have tried post May 1940 Blitzkrieg and front collapse, would have saved France from surrendering as it did. It was a deep routed mentality that had pervaded its military and politicians alike. Let it happen, if Germany meets the requirements. The game cries out for Vichy.
Goodnight.
There are a whole bunch of reasons why the Vichy change can’t happen on Germany’s turn. Among other things, it would mean that UK had no way to get its air to Egypt, short of buying a Gibraltar airbase. It would all but guarantee that Italy gets the “no enemy ships” NO on round 1 (unless UK does the 92 stack). It would eliminate uk’s ability to use the 93 french fleet as a blocker on round 1, meaning either it stacks Gibraltar on round 1 or it loses it.
Most importantly is the consideration Adam talked about in his post. It would transform the Vichy “option” into the Vichy “standard move,” by making it too good for any reasonable player to pass up.
As said before, though, I do think eliminating the UK fighter “trick” may be a good way to make Vichy France more costly for UK to thwart, and thus more attractive for axis.
Set stickied, by user request.
My biggest issue with the balanced mod so far:
Vichy is very strong in my opinion and I think I lost every game as Axis when I wasn’t able to trigger it. It makes Ita1 so much more easier and strengthens Italy a lot, which is needed because otherwise the Allies get too strong. A strong Italy is needed, that’s how I feel.
But triggering Vichy can be a real pain sometimes. If it would somehow be possible to make it slightly easier, I think that would help.
You and I have played quite a few games, some Vichy, some not. Why do you think it’s strong?
I think if it could trigger the Italian NOs on Ita1, it would be quite strong. As it stands, I could take it or leave it.
It saves you the trouble of getting rid of the French fleet. That not only saves you one sub on average (or dd, depending what you send), it also frees up the Italian planes to do some other important stuff.
It gives you 3 free inf in North Africa, which is worth 9 IPC. And you don’t need to send a transport there, which you usually can’t defend.
It gives you the opportunity to land in TRJ or even Syria, really threatening Cairo and Iraq at the same time.
IPC-wise, it’s already a huge boost in the first 2-3 rounds. But more importantly, Italian units are very scarce at the beginning - but lots of stuff to do. Greece, Gibraltar, Malta, North Africa, Cairo, Syria, clearing the med - these are all goals Italy ideally wants to achieve within 3 turns. But that’s not really possible without Vichy, because you just can’t spread your units so much.
How often am I sacrificing a transport in the regular version, just to get Morocco for the bonus, for example…
Aight. I can dig that. We got another problem though. If the UK plane in souther France is destroyed when the territory goes Vichy, what happens to a UK plane in French West Africa? The ability to keep that territory french is crititcal in a Vichy France scenario. Cuz it’s one of the only (if not the only) safe way for uk to to get air to Egypt by round 2. What u think?
I think it could be more simple then that. If Germany meets the vichy requirement on their turn, then vichy is instuted straight away.
On the other hand, if it is up to Italy, then the UK has a choice of sending a plane to southern france or not.
Soulbighter, see my last post for why an immediate G1 Vichy conversion is not workable (p.s., was originally coded that way months ago, and changed after play testing revealed these gameplay issues). When u getting that BM game started? :evil:
Also, I think I agree with the general thrust of MrRoboto’s post. Would requiring UK land units to prevent Vichy conversion allay these concerns? This way, thwarting Vichy involves sacrificing a transport and higher opportunity costs (still a reasonable option, but costlier). Perhaps even just adding +5 for Axis control of London would be sufficient to make UK think twice before throwing fighters at the problem?
Anybody think its fine the way it is?
I think making it a land unit is a good call, as is adding the +5 to Germany for Axis occupation of London. Getting London is tough under the best of circumstances - there should be a reward for that. Esp since so many of these NOs are supposed to represent morale and whatnot.
@Shin:
Esp since so many of these NOs are supposed to represent morale and whatnot.
correct. morale = war bonds . 8-)
Give germans King Tigers!
what if u required an allied land unit to stop vichy, but gave the brits a marine in gib? that way they have a choice to use the marine and sacrifice the ca or burn up a tt
Soulbighter, see my last post for why an immediate G1 Vichy conversion is not workable (p.s., was originally coded that way months ago, and changed after play testing revealed these gameplay issues). When u getting that BM game started? :evil:
Also, I think I agree with the general thrust of MrRoboto’s post. Would requiring UK land units to prevent Vichy conversion allay these concerns? This way, thwarting Vichy involves sacrificing a transport and higher opportunity costs (still a reasonable option, but costlier). Perhaps even just adding +5 for Axis control of London would be sufficient to make UK think twice before throwing fighters at the problem?
Anybody think its fine the way it is?
Well I think the goal is to maybe make securing Vichy a little easier for axis. Adding a marine to gib would make it harder (causing God knows what other sorts of havoc). Also, we have really tried to avoid making changes to the starting unit set up cuz doing so opens a Pandora’s box and gets everyone’s jimmies rustled.
no more than +3 or just +2, if even……
keep in mind that taking london means another 8pc from just the territories, along with a strong strategic position loaded with air and naval bases. and of course don’t forget the huge surge in ipc like 30 or more from capturing the capitol, and also the usual 20 or more gain in tuv from the battle (usually if germany goes SL it will ensure overwhelming odds).
other NOs are usually on top of a much smaller ipc gain, for example, novg or volg.
@Shin:
I think making it a land unit is a good call, as is adding the +5 to Germany for Axis occupation of London.� Getting London is tough under the best of circumstances - there should be a reward for that.� Esp since so many of these NOs are supposed to represent morale and whatnot.
no more than +3 or just +2, if even……
keep in mind that taking london means another 8pc from just the territories, along with a strong strategic position loaded with air and naval bases. and of course don’t forget the huge surge in ipc like 30 or more from capturing the capitol, and also the usual 20 or more gain in tuv from the battle (usually if germany goes SL it will ensure overwhelming odds).
other NOs are usually on top of a much smaller ipc gain, for example, novg or volg.
@Shin:
I think making it a land unit is a good call, as is adding the +5 to Germany for Axis occupation of London.� Getting London is tough under the best of circumstances - there should be a reward for that.� Esp since so many of these NOs are supposed to represent morale and whatnot.
London is considerably harder to hold by Germany in Balance Mod since US can liberate UK without the fear of Germany plundering UK income again. In my opinion +5 is probably just right.
no more than +3 or just +2, if even……
keep in mind that taking london means another 8pc from just the territories, along with a strong strategic position loaded with air and naval bases. and of course don’t forget the huge surge in ipc like 30 or more from capturing the capitol, and also the usual 20 or more gain in tuv from the battle (usually if germany goes SL it will ensure overwhelming odds).
other NOs are usually on top of a much smaller ipc gain, for example, novg or volg.
@Shin:
I think making it a land unit is a good call, as is adding the +5 to Germany for Axis occupation of London.� Getting London is tough under the best of circumstances - there should be a reward for that.� Esp since so many of these NOs are supposed to represent morale and whatnot.
I’m inclined to agree. Plus there’s a certain elegant simplicity in having all the vCs worth +5 pus
London is considerably harder to hold by Germany in Balance Mod since US can liberate UK without the fear of Germany plundering UK income again. In my opinion +5 is probably just right.
Yes. The fact that you can’t just take and retake those IPCs makes even fairly desperate liberation attempts a pretty sound policy. Germany needs the +5.
My only fear with the +5 is it might be making sea lion too appealing to resist even without the UK ftr loss. Russia is such a bear now why not shoot for sealion 4 or maybe even 5 as an every game option…
A third option could be that if vichy requirements are met any turn after turn 1 that you ignore the, “3. There are no non-french, Allied units in Southern France.” If at any french turn after turn1 there are allied units in southern france the territory becomes hostile, but since germany cannot move into southern france, the ftr/units get a turn to move out and all they have accomplished is delaying vichy 1 turn. Probably too hard to code though…
@Infrastructure:
A third option could be that if vichy requirements are met any turn after turn 1 that you ignore the, “3. There are no non-french, Allied units in Southern France.” If at any french turn after turn1 there are allied units in southern france the territory becomes hostile, but since germany cannot move into southern france, the ftr/units get a turn to move out and all they have accomplished is delaying vichy 1 turn. Probably too hard to code though…
Probably unnecessary since it is extremely easy for Germany to air nuke Southern France on round 2 (if it really wants to), and there is little reason for UK to keep supplying southern France with fighters to prevent Vichy after round 1, since the strategic benefits of Vichy France go down considerably after the first round (most of the French units, including the fleet in sz 93, will move out on the first round).
That said, Vichy France does occasionally happen on the second round. An example is my ongoing game with Shin Ji.
An example is my ongoing game with Shin Ji.
. . . my ongoing game against Mr. Roboto.**
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37496.msg1514464#msg1514464
