German Sub Opener

@drummerinheat:

Tavernier - the attacks beyond 91 are to rid the Atlantic of British Destroyers that can attack the surviving subs and the 5 new ones regardless of what other German units survive.  The thought is that as the UK, we are used to losing our entire Navy before our turn.  This leaves you with a potential for 2 battleships and then maybe air if u don’t scramble and Taranto.  I hope they take the bait and try to waist time and ipcs trying to save it.

YG - so it’s the 91 cruiser that decides  the do or do not Taranto if you are the UK?

Nippon - I believe you have your SZ’S mixed up.  Isn’t 96 in the Med? Do you attack 109 or 110? Cool that your a drummer too.  Band is called My God the Heat.

I meant 109, yes.  Again, trying to focus while at work lol.  I agree about scrambling: I love to bait the UK into scrambling if it can be done.

Anything online?  I’ll check you guys out.  I have a 90s rock cover band and an original 2-piece folk rock band Sara and Brian

If they attack 109, you should scramble out over that battle.  The subs can’t hit the planes, and unless he hits with everything, you get to keep the transport.    He can’t kill all the destroyers without going long odds or eating a counterscramble.

The best way to help Italy in all this is to allow them to take France and all its money, and to give them 2-3 german planes to potentially scramble in place of losing their airforce, if applicable.    Not to put german ships in the med or take a few side territories.

Subs seem kinda fun, but its a dilution of your power to do anything that doesn’t directly conquer USSR or UK.  I completely swarmed down UK last game with some subs I kept and bought over turns in G42 and it hardly did anything to his income and your Axis sea dominance ends no matter what after T4-5.    The most fun I’ve ever seen with an Axis sub army is when you destroy America and its income but its a losing strategy.

Happy Holidays to my crew AxA!

I’m not going to say that losing the UK Cruiser in 91 kills Taranto completely, but without the cruiser to help take out the Italian destroyer and transport, you’re looking at less than ideal odds in the Med during UK1. If I can’t get everything that can reach into the Taranto raid, than I won’t do it… especially if I can only hit the destroyer and transport with one fighter from Gibraltar, because any chance the Italian transport survives and they’re left with 2 for I1 would be devastating to north Africa and the Middle East.

@taamvan:

If they attack 109, you should scramble out over that battle.   The subs can’t hit the planes, and unless he hits with everything, you get to keep the transport.    He can’t kill all the destroyers without going long odds or eating a counterscramble.

The best way to help Italy in all this is to allow them to take France and all its money, and to give them 2-3 german planes to potentially scramble in place of losing their airforce, if applicable.    Not to put german ships in the med or take a few side territories.

Subs seem kinda fun, but its a dilution of your power to do anything that doesn’t directly conquer USSR or UK.   I completely swarmed down UK last game with some subs I kept and bought over turns in G42 and it hardly did anything to his income and your Axis sea dominance ends no matter what after T4-5.    The most fun I’ve ever seen with an Axis sub army is when you destroy America and its income but its a losing strategy.

Happy Holidays to my crew AxA!

Gonna disagree with this post (well, except for the holiday wishes)

If Germany goes to 109 with what I suggested (3 subs, 5 total planes) then I welcome a 4 plane scramble.  After a round of combat the averages say Germany loses 3 subs, UK loses a DD and 3 fighters.

@drummerinheat:

Nippon - So you don’t bother with the UK Cruiser in 91?

With this specific opener I prefer to make sure all the DD’s are gone.  The cool part about going into 109 with 3 subs is you’ll rarely get a scramble from UK, meaning you’re likely ending the round with 4, maybe 5, subs left in addition to the 5 you just bought.  10 subs in the water is a lot of fun  8-)

Are all those subs really necessary? Isn’t Germany in pretty good position to deny the Allies an Atlantic fleet just from air and the leftover subs it already has after G1? Even if you wanted more, is a full buy really warranted? Wouldn’t two bombers and one sub give you more flexibility and achieve the same fleet-denial effect?

I would agree with SubmersedElk. I might even go with 1 bomber and 3 subs so you still have some convoy raiding possibility but still some flexibility to hit land targets or bomb factories with the extra bomber.

@knp7765:

I would agree with SubmersedElk. I might even go with 1 bomber and 3 subs so you still have some convoy raiding possibility but still some flexibility to hit land targets or bomb factories with the extra bomber.

This looks like to me as a solid balanced solution.
Flexibility compared with sub convoy raids.

@SubmersedElk:

Are all those subs really necessary? Isn’t Germany in pretty good position to deny the Allies an Atlantic fleet just from air and the leftover subs it already has after G1? Even if you wanted more, is a full buy really warranted? Wouldn’t two bombers and one sub give you more flexibility and achieve the same fleet-denial effect?

Necessary?  Not really.  But it’s a fun alternative  8-)

I guess I’m the one who is confused;  You state attacking 109, which has 1 destroyer and 1 transport, with

“Regarding this move: 1 Sub/1 Bomber/2 Fighters/2 Tacs Sz109”

This is not a good move, because it is extreme overkill and aimed at a very low value unit.  I suggested scrambling because I assumed you meant you were attacking SZ 109 with the hope of “knocking out all his destroyers” with subs.  I don’t know why you would attack with a whole stack of stuff–you could kill the SZ 91 cruiser and all the forces in SZ110 instead of one destroyer, or attack the SZ106 destroyer that is more capable of helping UK reinforce.    In fact, SZ 109 is often the only combat ship that survives.

Simply have no idea why you would attack SZ109 in force but ignore SZ110.  I agree you would never scramble out to meet german air unless he made a poor set of undercommits.

Very interesting drummer…hmm

People seem to think the UK cruiser is key to Taranto–but at least at my last review, people were pointing out that you can actually bring 1 (don’t think 2) of the fighters from the UK on top of all the other junk, the sacrificial carrier, etc…such that there is no way for Germany to really affect the chances of it succeeding offensively.

My best suggestion is that Germany send 1-3 fighters and tactical to southern Italy.  This of course requires Germany to re-route some of them from key combats, but Germany is much better able to lose the planes than Italy, and it is a choice can still make/not make at the last minute, then use all the Italian and German planes down there on T2 to clear the med.

The odds for Taranto are just plain good–its a solid opener and should be used every game.  That isn’t to say that it is never a good idea to counterattack the stax.  And the UK should never land the surviving planes on Syria, they should land on Malta (or Cyprus)
(Syria is in a good direction for Italy to go.  Malta isn’t, though it makes an awesome UK air fortress with the US).

The german sub staxx is a very tempting idea–but I’ll repeat that the most effective incarnation of it I’ve ever seen was to wipe out all the UK ships (leaving a UK destroyer isn’t as big a deal as you imply–carrier/cruiser/BB is enough to protect a sub stack), have Italy take Gibraltar, and then have the whole thing stand off Gibraltar with the Italian navy right before America is going to declare war.  This way, if America has insufficient Atlantic navy he is instantly cast from the offense to the defense at a critical time.

A much more conservative version accepts that its better to have 2-4 subs survive G1, add 2-3 more, and use them to hold down 125 and 109.  But it wont last.

Building like 15-20 german subs seems like an awesome gambit but its actually a defensive german move.  Have you tried it in the G42 setup?  In G42, Germany is a defensive power…

ooh, and as for Italy Strong?  have them finish off the French and take Paris, clear the med with help, and Syria.

In Game 92, Italy had all 3 oil states and MIC Iraq and Persia.

@Young:

Regarding this move: 1 Sub/1 Bomber/2 Fighters/2 Tacs Sz109

It’s very interesting because as Germany I would roll this battle before the 2 subs on the Brit cruiser off Gibraltar. Reason being Taranto is on or off the table based on if the cruiser survives or not, if it is removed… I scramble 4 fighters into 109 knowing that I’m not gonna do a Taranto raid. So I would leave the 91 battle last to keep them guessing about wether or not they should scramble into 109.

Nit pick - I’m sure that the rules don’t allow this - scramble is decided at the end of combat movement, not in bid combat rolling.

Hi guys,

here are some of my thoughts:

1. Making subs invincible by killing all DDs is a good idea, I played that opener myself back then
2. Buying 5 subs G1 is not the best idea, simply because Germans need ground units against Russia

Plus: I Germans leaves 110 untouched then I think it is an appropriate reaction by UK to skip taranto, buy an air base UK1 and put a strong fleet into 92. If played properly that fleet can hammer the Italian fleet earlier or later. Next to that UK should stay calm with the Egypt units an avoid losing Egypt.