Recently I have seen a couple people recommending that players buy 1 submarine on G1 in addition to their other buys whether it is fleet or bombers or artillery or mobile units. Most games I buy infantry in this sort of situation. What I’m really curious about is what is the point of buying this submarine?
What specifically is it supposed to accomplish by turn 4?
If you go with the opener where you specifically kill all the UK’s destroyers, the sub is a very effective purchase because it either limits what the UK can do in the Med/Middle East because those subs are causing convoy disruption, or the UK buys destroyers to deal with them (which limits what the UK can do in the Med/Middle East).
Marsh
For me the main reason is to combine with a strafe on SZ111. Without the extra hit soak the sub provides, SZ112 can usually be hit UK1, particularly if the cruiser in SZ111 survives.
The second reason is that the sub can block the SZ125 NO. If you use a DD to do this, UK air can easily take it out.
If you kill the destroyers and strafe 111, doesn’t that mean UK will still have 2 BB and a cruiser. Your fighters would land in Belgium and can’t protect your battleship. Wouldn’t it be more valuable to destroy both main home fleets and protect the channel with airpoeer so you can focus Russia. The missing 6 ipc would matter if UK doesn’t scramble and starts sending planes to Moscow
Neither battleships nor cruisers can force your subs to do battle and thereby save the UK’s income!
@Marshmallow:
Neither battleships nor cruisers can force your subs to do battle and thereby save the UK’s income!
So Germany’s battleship is forfeit though?
My specific reason for buying that sub is, to kill the SZ111 UK battleship G2, while keeping the German battleship alive. On G1, I like to to take out SZ110, but only strafe SZ111, and then retreat the German battleship. Ideally, this would leave the UK with only a damaged battleship in SZ111, and that battleship can’t escape from the range of the German sub and bombers. But I’d rather not loose a bomber when attacking the battleship G2, so that’s where the sub comes in.
If the strafe doesn’t quite go as well - say that the UK cruiser has also survived - then as Germany, I still have a fair chance of killing both ships with 2 bombers plus the sub if the ships stay together. Or, if they split, I’ll probably just go after the battleship and leave the cruiser alone.
The second reason is that the sub can block the SZ125 NO. If you use a DD to do this, UK air can easily take it out.
We had always assumed that the Axis required a surface warship to block the SZ125 NO. You learn something every day…
@Herr:
My specific reason for buying that sub is, to kill the SZ111 UK battleship G2, while keeping the German battleship alive. On G1, I like to to take out SZ110, but only strafe SZ111, and then retreat the German battleship. Ideally, this would leave the UK with only a damaged battleship in SZ111, and that battleship can’t escape from the range of the German sub and bombers. But I’d rather not loose a bomber when attacking the battleship G2, so that’s where the sub comes in.
If the strafe doesn’t quite go as well - say that the UK cruiser has also survived - then as Germany, I still have a fair chance of killing both ships with 2 bombers plus the sub if the ships stay together. Or, if they split, I’ll probably just go after the battleship and leave the cruiser alone.
It’s always best to destroy the uk batt G1 even if you lose your own batt uk1. The allies can easily make it so you either have a low odds fight g2 to destroy the batt or you have to use so many planes to scramble protect you are light in planes for other objectives like the med uk navy counter. Also, the uk will likely use their destroyer as fodder in the counter against the batt and any surviving subs, which means when u destroy it g2, if it happened to survive uk1, the sub u purchased g1 can take the 125sz NO from ussr without any counter. Also, the uk will need to use planes with that destroyer to defeat the fleet left in 111, which means they might go a little light in some med battles, which can open up opportunities there for italy if you have above average dice in those battles.
@Herr:
My specific reason for buying that sub is, to kill the SZ111 UK battleship G2, while keeping the German battleship alive. On G1, I like to to take out SZ110, but only strafe SZ111, and then retreat the German battleship. Ideally, this would leave the UK with only a damaged battleship in SZ111, and that battleship can’t escape from the range of the German sub and bombers. But I’d rather not loose a bomber when attacking the battleship G2, so that’s where the sub comes in.
If the strafe doesn’t quite go as well - say that the UK cruiser has also survived - then as Germany, I still have a fair chance of killing both ships with 2 bombers plus the sub if the ships stay together. Or, if they split, I’ll probably just go after the battleship and leave the cruiser alone.It’s always best to destroy the uk batt G1 even if you lose your own batt uk1. The allies can easily make it so you either have a low odds fight g2 to destroy the batt or you have to use so many planes to scramble protect you are light in planes for other objectives like the med uk navy counter. Also, the uk will likely use their destroyer as fodder in the counter against the batt and any surviving subs, which means when u destroy it g2, if it happened to survive uk1, the sub u purchased g1 can take the 125sz NO from ussr without any counter. Also, the uk will need to use planes with that destroyer to defeat the fleet left in 111, which means they might go a little light in some med battles, which can open up opportunities there for italy if you have above average dice in those battles.
Are you referring to ignoring sz 110 and instead of strafing 111 you suggest to take it instead?
@Herr:
My specific reason for buying that sub is, to kill the SZ111 UK battleship G2, while keeping the German battleship alive. On G1, I like to to take out SZ110, but only strafe SZ111, and then retreat the German battleship. Ideally, this would leave the UK with only a damaged battleship in SZ111, and that battleship can’t escape from the range of the German sub and bombers. But I’d rather not loose a bomber when attacking the battleship G2, so that’s where the sub comes in.
If the strafe doesn’t quite go as well - say that the UK cruiser has also survived - then as Germany, I still have a fair chance of killing both ships with 2 bombers plus the sub if the ships stay together. Or, if they split, I’ll probably just go after the battleship and leave the cruiser alone.It’s always best to destroy the uk batt G1 even if you lose your own batt uk1. The allies can easily make it so you either have a low odds fight g2 to destroy the batt or you have to use so many planes to scramble protect you are light in planes for other objectives like the med uk navy counter. Also, the uk will likely use their destroyer as fodder in the counter against the batt and any surviving subs, which means when u destroy it g2, if it happened to survive uk1, the sub u purchased g1 can take the 125sz NO from ussr without any counter. Also, the uk will need to use planes with that destroyer to defeat the fleet left in 111, which means they might go a little light in some med battles, which can open up opportunities there for italy if you have above average dice in those battles.
Are you referring to ignoring sz 110 and instead of strafing 111 you suggest to take it instead?
If you ignore either SZ you’re leaving a battleship alive so probably that’s not what aagamerz13 was going for.
However, responding to aagamerz13, I doubt that leaving a British BB alive would hurt you in the short term, especially if you can keep your own alive. There’s not much Britain can do with it early on, maybe it can go to the Mediterranean to help defeat Italy but britain usually is able to make Italy a non factor even without the BB.
I may be mistaken here, but I don’t see a very good way for the UK to protect the damaged battleship without significantly compromising other objectives they may have. It’s all circumstantial of course, and it depends on the outcome of the strafe run on SZ111 - as that battle progresses, Germany has the flexibility to either strafe or not. But the target situation after G1 is:
For maximum protection, the British may decide to move the battleship, cruiser and destroyer to SZ119 and put three fighters in Scotland. But that compromises their Taranto attack, and they can’t send the cruiser to SZ96. And Germany may still go for it if they want to, sending their battleship, cruiser, sub, 2 bombers, a fighter and a tactical bomber - the latter two would then require Germany to build a carrier G2.
Alternatively, the British may move everything to SZ109 for maximum scramble protection, but that implies they’re really not doing anything else with those fighters, so no Taranto there. Plus, Germany may now send its entire air force because the planes can land anyway.
Agreed, German air wouldn’t be doing much else on G2 in such a scenario. Whether that’s a problem, depends on Germany’s plans in the east. I like an I2 attack on Russia anyway, so without a British Taranto raid there’s not all that much to do for the Luftwaffe G2.
@Elsass-Lorraine:
@Herr:
My specific reason for buying that sub is, to kill the SZ111 UK battleship G2, while keeping the German battleship alive. On G1, I like to to take out SZ110, but only strafe SZ111, and then retreat the German battleship. Ideally, this would leave the UK with only a damaged battleship in SZ111, and that battleship can’t escape from the range of the German sub and bombers. But I’d rather not loose a bomber when attacking the battleship G2, so that’s where the sub comes in.
If the strafe doesn’t quite go as well - say that the UK cruiser has also survived - then as Germany, I still have a fair chance of killing both ships with 2 bombers plus the sub if the ships stay together. Or, if they split, I’ll probably just go after the battleship and leave the cruiser alone.It’s always best to destroy the uk batt G1 even if you lose your own batt uk1. The allies can easily make it so you either have a low odds fight g2 to destroy the batt or you have to use so many planes to scramble protect you are light in planes for other objectives like the med uk navy counter. Also, the uk will likely use their destroyer as fodder in the counter against the batt and any surviving subs, which means when u destroy it g2, if it happened to survive uk1, the sub u purchased g1 can take the 125sz NO from ussr without any counter. Also, the uk will need to use planes with that destroyer to defeat the fleet left in 111, which means they might go a little light in some med battles, which can open up opportunities there for italy if you have above average dice in those battles.
Are you referring to ignoring sz 110 and instead of strafing 111 you suggest to take it instead?
If you ignore either SZ you�re leaving a battleship alive so probably that�s not what aagamer was going for.
However, responding to aagamer, I doubt that leaving a British BB alive would hurt you in the short term, especially if you can keep your own alive. There�s not much Britain can do with it early on, maybe it can go to the Mediterranean to help defeat Italy but britain usually is able to make Italy a non factor even without the BB.
Wipe out both 110 and 111. That way, allies will only have a fleet if usa spends a lot for it.
Why not just buy a sub to ensure you have one with which to deny Russia their 5 IPs when you DOW on G2?
I usually stack Baltic on G2 if Sea Lion isn’t occurring. It’s nice to start Barbarossa with the NO being denied. I don’t like using the German cruiser because the Red October can take a shot.
My old German buy used to be a submarine, destroyer, and a carrier for Germany regardless if I was going to Sea Lion or invade USSR.
Subs are great. I just hit up Safeway for their $5 Friday and I copped a sub.
