German Sub Opener

[drummerinheat]

Thanks Nippon.  Does this seem to help Italy much?  I feel like this move really gives the UK a headache.  Taking out that cruiser robs a fighter from Taranto in order to hit the Italian Destroyer (it also removes a blocker in that SZ so Italy could potentially hit Egypt) and the fighter in Tobruk makes the UK attack on Tobruk very sub par unless they bring in air support.

[Tavenier]

As Germany I help out Italy by taking out that cruiser rather then taking out the DD and TT off the coast of Canada. Or if I feel Lucky I do both with about 50-50 odds.

[Young Grasshopper]

Regarding this move: 1 Sub/1 Bomber/2 Fighters/2 Tacs Sz109

It’s very interesting because as Germany I would roll this battle before the 2 subs on the Brit cruiser off Gibraltar. Reason being Taranto is on or off the table based on if the cruiser survives or not, if it is removed… I scramble 4 fighters into 109 knowing that I’m not gonna do a Taranto raid. So I would leave the 91 battle last to keep them guessing about wether or not they should scramble into 109.

[Nippon-koku]

@Young:

Regarding this move: 1 Sub/1 Bomber/2 Fighters/2 Tacs Sz109

It’s very interesting because as Germany I would roll this battle before the 2 subs on the Brit cruiser off Gibraltar. Reason being Taranto is on or off the table based on if the cruiser survives or not, if it is removed… I scramble 4 fighters into 109 knowing that I’m not gonna do a Taranto raid. So I would leave the 91 battle last to keep them guessing about wether or not they should scramble into 109.

Interesting point YG.  I’ve rarely considered the strategy of which battles you should roll first.

When I do this German opening I like to bring 3 subs to SZ 96.  I find this, along with enough air power, keeps UK from scrambling, thus ensuring a nice convoy roll.  I generally do 2 subs to 106, 3 subs 2 fighters 2 tacs to 96, and the BB, 2 fighters, 1 tac, 2 str to 111.

My thinking for each:

106 is obvious.  2 subs should beat 1 DD

96 is a tempting scramble for UK at first glance, but it doesn’t really make sense for them.  Scrambling all 4 should net them 3 hits, German subs gone.  On the other hand, Germany should also get 3 hits, wiping out the DD and two fighters.  At this point Germany can retreat having lost subs as opposed to UK losing fighters, or just press on and finish off the entire RAF at the loss of what should be 1 German plane.

111 is riskier.  If the ftr in Scotland scrambles you can count on losing at least one plane.  That being said, a scramble should mean 2 hits for UK (BB gone) whereas Germany should hit 3-4.  If they hit 3, count on losing at least one plane.

Drummer, what do you think of this?

Btw, I’ve been a drummer for years as well.  Play in two bands  8-)  have any projects currently?

[Young Grasshopper]

@Young:

Regarding this move: 1 Sub/1 Bomber/2 Fighters/2 Tacs Sz109

It’s very interesting because as Germany I would roll this battle before the 2 subs on the Brit cruiser off Gibraltar. Reason being Taranto is on or off the table based on if the cruiser survives or not, if it is removed… I scramble 4 fighters into 109 knowing that I’m not gonna do a Taranto raid. So I would leave the 91 battle last to keep them guessing about wether or not they should scramble into 109.Â

Sorry, my mistake… all scrambles are deployed before the resolve combat phase begins (scrambling planes should really have it’s own phase in the turn sequence).

[drummerinheat]

Tavernier - the attacks beyond 91 are to rid the Atlantic of British Destroyers that can attack the surviving subs and the 5 new ones regardless of what other German units survive.  The thought is that as the UK, we are used to losing our entire Navy before our turn.  This leaves you with a potential for 2 battleships and then maybe air if u don’t scramble and Taranto.  I hope they take the bait and try to waist time and ipcs trying to save it.

YG - so it’s the 91 cruiser that decides  the do or do not Taranto if you are the UK?

Nippon - I believe you have your SZ’S mixed up.  Isn’t 96 in the Med? Do you attack 109 or 110? Cool that your a drummer too.  Band is called My God the Heat.

[Nippon-koku]

@drummerinheat:

Tavernier - the attacks beyond 91 are to rid the Atlantic of British Destroyers that can attack the surviving subs and the 5 new ones regardless of what other German units survive.  The thought is that as the UK, we are used to losing our entire Navy before our turn.  This leaves you with a potential for 2 battleships and then maybe air if u don’t scramble and Taranto.  I hope they take the bait and try to waist time and ipcs trying to save it.

YG - so it’s the 91 cruiser that decides  the do or do not Taranto if you are the UK?

Nippon - I believe you have your SZ’S mixed up.  Isn’t 96 in the Med? Do you attack 109 or 110? Cool that your a drummer too.  Band is called My God the Heat.

I meant 109, yes.  Again, trying to focus while at work lol.  I agree about scrambling: I love to bait the UK into scrambling if it can be done.

Anything online?  I’ll check you guys out.  I have a 90s rock cover band and an original 2-piece folk rock band Sara and Brian

[drummerinheat]

ShadowHawk - I felt that was a strong UK response.  Italy could kill the 2 french boats with air and condense their fleet.  That could be a good counter to the counter :)

Nippon:  I figured you meant 109.

YG: I would still like to know if/why the 91 cruiser will change Taranto decision.

[taamvan]

If they attack 109, you should scramble out over that battle.  The subs can’t hit the planes, and unless he hits with everything, you get to keep the transport.    He can’t kill all the destroyers without going long odds or eating a counterscramble.

The best way to help Italy in all this is to allow them to take France and all its money, and to give them 2-3 german planes to potentially scramble in place of losing their airforce, if applicable.    Not to put german ships in the med or take a few side territories.

Subs seem kinda fun, but its a dilution of your power to do anything that doesn’t directly conquer USSR or UK.  I completely swarmed down UK last game with some subs I kept and bought over turns in G42 and it hardly did anything to his income and your Axis sea dominance ends no matter what after T4-5.    The most fun I’ve ever seen with an Axis sub army is when you destroy America and its income but its a losing strategy.

Happy Holidays to my crew AxA!

[drummerinheat]

taamvan - even with a max scramble of 4 in 109 odds are still 79% in favor of Germany.  I will admit, I forgot that the UK could scramble 4, so i ran the odds.  If the UK does this and loses even half it’s air, that should rule out Taranto.  The down side for the axis, is on average it will cost them 2 fighters and a Tac.  I’m not saying it’s a perfect strategy at all.  Just trying to see what Germany can do to help Italy get over the 20 IPC mark.

I know it’s hard to project later turns, but I plan to convoy with the subs as long as possible and bomb the London Factory before my air moves to Moscow.

[Young Grasshopper]

I’m not going to say that losing the UK Cruiser in 91 kills Taranto completely, but without the cruiser to help take out the Italian destroyer and transport, you’re looking at less than ideal odds in the Med during UK1. If I can’t get everything that can reach into the Taranto raid, than I won’t do it… especially if I can only hit the destroyer and transport with one fighter from Gibraltar, because any chance the Italian transport survives and they’re left with 2 for I1 would be devastating to north Africa and the Middle East.

[Nippon-koku]

@taamvan:

If they attack 109, you should scramble out over that battle.   The subs can’t hit the planes, and unless he hits with everything, you get to keep the transport.    He can’t kill all the destroyers without going long odds or eating a counterscramble.

The best way to help Italy in all this is to allow them to take France and all its money, and to give them 2-3 german planes to potentially scramble in place of losing their airforce, if applicable.    Not to put german ships in the med or take a few side territories.

Subs seem kinda fun, but its a dilution of your power to do anything that doesn’t directly conquer USSR or UK.   I completely swarmed down UK last game with some subs I kept and bought over turns in G42 and it hardly did anything to his income and your Axis sea dominance ends no matter what after T4-5.    The most fun I’ve ever seen with an Axis sub army is when you destroy America and its income but its a losing strategy.

Happy Holidays to my crew AxA!

Gonna disagree with this post (well, except for the holiday wishes)

If Germany goes to 109 with what I suggested (3 subs, 5 total planes) then I welcome a 4 plane scramble.  After a round of combat the averages say Germany loses 3 subs, UK loses a DD and 3 fighters.

[drummerinheat]

Nippon - So you don’t bother with the UK Cruiser in 91?

YG - I understand.  I believe the last time I lost that cruiser, I sent the Gib fighter and Malta Fighter to 96 and sent both fighters and bomber from uk along with everything else to 97.  I skipped Tobruk.  I realize this increases Sea Lion odds, but i feel it’s better to neuter Italy and put the UK at risk.

[Nippon-koku]

@drummerinheat:

Nippon - So you don’t bother with the UK Cruiser in 91?

With this specific opener I prefer to make sure all the DD’s are gone.  The cool part about going into 109 with 3 subs is you’ll rarely get a scramble from UK, meaning you’re likely ending the round with 4, maybe 5, subs left in addition to the 5 you just bought.  10 subs in the water is a lot of fun  8-)

[SubmersedElk]

Are all those subs really necessary? Isn’t Germany in pretty good position to deny the Allies an Atlantic fleet just from air and the leftover subs it already has after G1? Even if you wanted more, is a full buy really warranted? Wouldn’t two bombers and one sub give you more flexibility and achieve the same fleet-denial effect?

[knp7765]

I would agree with SubmersedElk. I might even go with 1 bomber and 3 subs so you still have some convoy raiding possibility but still some flexibility to hit land targets or bomb factories with the extra bomber.

[drummerinheat]

elk - I can see how the sub buy may be over kill, but I need to hit 2 battleships and potentially some cruisers the next turn with the possibility of air cover.  I don’t want to lose my Air Force over the Atlantic.  The subs are just a cheap multi tool.

Knp - I’m starting to like this buy.  The extra bomber will be helpful for sbr on turn 2.

Ideally, The massive sub purchase will help keep the Americans from hitting Africa for 1 turn.  Either that or help relieve Japan of American pressure in the pacific.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

@knp7765:

I would agree with SubmersedElk. I might even go with 1 bomber and 3 subs so you still have some convoy raiding possibility but still some flexibility to hit land targets or bomb factories with the extra bomber.

This looks like to me as a solid balanced solution.
Flexibility compared with sub convoy raids.

[Nippon-koku]

@SubmersedElk:

Are all those subs really necessary? Isn’t Germany in pretty good position to deny the Allies an Atlantic fleet just from air and the leftover subs it already has after G1? Even if you wanted more, is a full buy really warranted? Wouldn’t two bombers and one sub give you more flexibility and achieve the same fleet-denial effect?

Necessary?  Not really.  But it’s a fun alternative  8-)

[taamvan]

I guess I’m the one who is confused;  You state attacking 109, which has 1 destroyer and 1 transport, with

“Regarding this move: 1 Sub/1 Bomber/2 Fighters/2 Tacs Sz109”

This is not a good move, because it is extreme overkill and aimed at a very low value unit.  I suggested scrambling because I assumed you meant you were attacking SZ 109 with the hope of “knocking out all his destroyers” with subs.  I don’t know why you would attack with a whole stack of stuff–you could kill the SZ 91 cruiser and all the forces in SZ110 instead of one destroyer, or attack the SZ106 destroyer that is more capable of helping UK reinforce.    In fact, SZ 109 is often the only combat ship that survives.

Simply have no idea why you would attack SZ109 in force but ignore SZ110.  I agree you would never scramble out to meet german air unless he made a poor set of undercommits.