German Sub Opener

[Nippon-koku]

@SubmersedElk:

Are all those subs really necessary? Isn’t Germany in pretty good position to deny the Allies an Atlantic fleet just from air and the leftover subs it already has after G1? Even if you wanted more, is a full buy really warranted? Wouldn’t two bombers and one sub give you more flexibility and achieve the same fleet-denial effect?

Necessary?  Not really.  But it’s a fun alternative  8-)

[taamvan]

I guess I’m the one who is confused;  You state attacking 109, which has 1 destroyer and 1 transport, with

“Regarding this move: 1 Sub/1 Bomber/2 Fighters/2 Tacs Sz109”

This is not a good move, because it is extreme overkill and aimed at a very low value unit.  I suggested scrambling because I assumed you meant you were attacking SZ 109 with the hope of “knocking out all his destroyers” with subs.  I don’t know why you would attack with a whole stack of stuff–you could kill the SZ 91 cruiser and all the forces in SZ110 instead of one destroyer, or attack the SZ106 destroyer that is more capable of helping UK reinforce.    In fact, SZ 109 is often the only combat ship that survives.

Simply have no idea why you would attack SZ109 in force but ignore SZ110.  I agree you would never scramble out to meet german air unless he made a poor set of undercommits.

[drummerinheat]

Taamvan - the initial plan was to wipe out destroyers that could be used to counter attack the sub purchase.  The more I weigh everyone’s ideas and opinions, the more I’m beginning to change the buy.  I was initially skipping 110 because I did not have enough fire power to take out 110 safely while still getting that pesky Cruiser in 91, and getting the 111 fleet (another pesky destroyer).

However, the more I go over this move, I realize the most important move (to me) is preventing Taranto, or making it very costly to the UK.  A lot of that hinges on killing the 91 Cruiser and giving the UK options in the Atlantic.

I like the new buy of 1 bomber and 3 subs rather than the 6 subs.  I’m just looking for the best way to discourage Taranto.  If Italy can keep 97 in tact, it’s so helpful! Plus, I have a special love for Italy doing well.

[taamvan]

Very interesting drummer…hmm

People seem to think the UK cruiser is key to Taranto–but at least at my last review, people were pointing out that you can actually bring 1 (don’t think 2) of the fighters from the UK on top of all the other junk, the sacrificial carrier, etc…such that there is no way for Germany to really affect the chances of it succeeding offensively.

My best suggestion is that Germany send 1-3 fighters and tactical to southern Italy.  This of course requires Germany to re-route some of them from key combats, but Germany is much better able to lose the planes than Italy, and it is a choice can still make/not make at the last minute, then use all the Italian and German planes down there on T2 to clear the med.

The odds for Taranto are just plain good–its a solid opener and should be used every game.  That isn’t to say that it is never a good idea to counterattack the stax.  And the UK should never land the surviving planes on Syria, they should land on Malta (or Cyprus)
(Syria is in a good direction for Italy to go.  Malta isn’t, though it makes an awesome UK air fortress with the US).

The german sub staxx is a very tempting idea–but I’ll repeat that the most effective incarnation of it I’ve ever seen was to wipe out all the UK ships (leaving a UK destroyer isn’t as big a deal as you imply–carrier/cruiser/BB is enough to protect a sub stack), have Italy take Gibraltar, and then have the whole thing stand off Gibraltar with the Italian navy right before America is going to declare war.  This way, if America has insufficient Atlantic navy he is instantly cast from the offense to the defense at a critical time.

A much more conservative version accepts that its better to have 2-4 subs survive G1, add 2-3 more, and use them to hold down 125 and 109.  But it wont last.

Building like 15-20 german subs seems like an awesome gambit but its actually a defensive german move.  Have you tried it in the G42 setup?  In G42, Germany is a defensive power…

[taamvan]

ooh, and as for Italy Strong?  have them finish off the French and take Paris, clear the med with help, and Syria.

In Game 92, Italy had all 3 oil states and MIC Iraq and Persia.

[simon33]

@Young:

Regarding this move: 1 Sub/1 Bomber/2 Fighters/2 Tacs Sz109

It’s very interesting because as Germany I would roll this battle before the 2 subs on the Brit cruiser off Gibraltar. Reason being Taranto is on or off the table based on if the cruiser survives or not, if it is removed… I scramble 4 fighters into 109 knowing that I’m not gonna do a Taranto raid. So I would leave the 91 battle last to keep them guessing about wether or not they should scramble into 109.

Nit pick - I’m sure that the rules don’t allow this - scramble is decided at the end of combat movement, not in bid combat rolling.

[JDOW]

Hi guys,

here are some of my thoughts:

1. Making subs invincible by killing all DDs is a good idea, I played that opener myself back then
2. Buying 5 subs G1 is not the best idea, simply because Germans need ground units against Russia

Plus: I Germans leaves 110 untouched then I think it is an appropriate reaction by UK to skip taranto, buy an air base UK1 and put a strong fleet into 92. If played properly that fleet can hammer the Italian fleet earlier or later. Next to that UK should stay calm with the Egypt units an avoid losing Egypt.