You just load em up onto your Soviet Black Sea Navy. The one with the Battleship.
G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions)
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Right on. I think I’d prefer an OOB tacB for general testing. If only because it’s easier to float on the boards, like “grab this and go.” With less chance that players get confused or distracted by the tactical bomber. I’m kind of curious if the Strategic Bomber and Airbase changes alone might produce a game which is balanced by sides? Because that would be a major windfall and a great selling point for the HR. Get the Allies away from these 30+ bids that are needed OOB to realistically win against Axis experts, who know how to employ the OOB strat bomber to full effect.
No rush though. As of now it’s basically just like 5 of us in here, so it’s not as if we need to strike while the iron is still hot or anything. Hehe
:-DThere is many good things with bombers and Fgs which make SBR not as destructive as OOB but noone will be scared of a flight of bombers. Intercept going to be normal thing to do.
Player will not be too desperate to loose 5 IPC unit. And may even add some Fg in hope of destroying an interceptor. @1 per Fg is not so high.
It is clearly better incentive than Balanced Mode SBR, not adressing any critic on other things which seems pretty good.
Maybe some will want more Fg A1 vs D2 to better depict the homeland advantage for interceptors.
But StB A0 vs Fg D1 is already a massive incentive and clearly depict how Fg can slaughter bombers.Also, from attacker POV, bringing Fgs for a single combat round instead of ground support @3 for many rounds is not such a good investment: not knowing if defender will commit Fgs for defense. So A1 vs D1 remains a balanced choice, in that case.
TcB and Fg gains much air cover with +2 bonus and also be part of long range SBRs.
This provides also a better historical depiction about StBs vs Fgs escorts range.
Now Fgs can escort bomber from Iwo Jima. Or starting from Midway, can be escorted by Fgs at Iwo.
ABs in PTO now allow Fgs to bring ground support in adjacent island invasion.
Giving 8 move to armless StBs for regular combat have no impact.
That’s the beauty of this 0 hit bomber.If eventually someone is longing for some attack factor for Bombers in SBR.
It will be easy to provide some idea coming from TP thread to add a weak attack, like:
Young Grasshopper 1A@1 for whole bombers group.
Or any and only shot down StB by Fg get a one shot last defense roll @1.I’m very confident of this whole change.
And if A4 is missing to many, then you have TcB A4 D3 M4-6 C12 in back pocket.
It will not be exactly as StBs for sure. And in regular combat, it may shines with less projection of power and mobility. -
If you’re going to take the combat ability away from Str then perhaps consider allowing them to transport infantry too instead of just Strategic bombing missions. If you don’t want to add paratroopers then use as a transport only on non combat movement and make them land before infantry unloads at the end of Str movement.
Just a thought.
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Yes with lower cost of Bomber and your lower cost of a fig will be buying more figs.
IN game now what do we do with the Heavy Bomber Values ? D12
HV Bomber A0 D0 C10 M7 1D6 +2 Can transport 2 inf only in NCM ? @2 dogfight ?
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If you’re going to take the combat ability away from Str then perhaps consider allowing them to transport infantry too instead of just Strategic bombing missions. If you don’t want to add paratroopers then use as a transport only on non combat movement and make them land before infantry unloads at the end of Str movement.
Just a thought.
It is a possible optional feature in G40 I believe, 1942.2? not sure.
You can download files general Hand Grenade, and try a game.
I’m not sure it will be balanced however. Too many Infantry mobility, IMO. -
I’d scrap the carry 2 inf on NCM. Air transport planes is 8 icps. Probably end up not buying any Transport planes in game.
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@SS:
Yes with lower cost of Bomber and your lower cost of a fig will be buying more figs.
IN game now what do we do with the Heavy Bomber Values ? D12
HV Bomber A0 D0 C10 M7 1D6 +2 Can transport 2 inf only in NCM ? @2 dogfight ?
My personnal feeling for your custom units:
Bomber A2 D0 C8 M6-8, 1 hit 1D6 +2 Can transport 1 inf only in NCM.
@2 dogfight, as AAA against up to two Fgs, 1 roll/interceptor max.
Only this bomber can transport 1 Inf. -
I have been ignoring all the Tech Research upgrades as they relate to these modifications for a couple reasons. I think we can make them work in the new system if given enough attention. But the general consensus seems to be that people either don’t like or don’t play with Tech anyway, so not having an immediate answer for Tech like Heavy Bombers or Long Range Aircraft isn’t a huge deal.
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@Baron:
@SS:
Yes with lower cost of Bomber and your lower cost of a fig will be buying more figs.
IN game now what do we do with the Heavy Bomber Values ? D12
HV Bomber A0 D0 C10 M7 1D6 +2� Can transport 2 inf only in NCM ? @2 dogfight ?
My personnal feeling for your custom units:
Bomber A2 D0 C8 M6-8, 1 hit 1D6 +2� Can transport 1 inf only in NCM.
@2 dogfight, as AAA against up to two Fgs, 1 roll/interceptor max.
Only this bomber can transport 1 Inf.Are these values for Heavy Bombers ? Cost seems to low.
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@SS:
@Baron:
@SS:
Yes with lower cost of Bomber and your lower cost of a fig will be buying more figs.
IN game now what do we do with the Heavy Bomber Values ? D12
HV Bomber A0 D0 C10 M7 1D6 +2 Can transport 2 inf only in NCM ? @2 dogfight ?
My personnal feeling for your custom units:
Bomber A2 D0 C8 M6-8, 1 hit 1D6 +2 Can transport 1 inf only in NCM.
@2 dogfight, as AAA against up to two Fgs, 1 roll/interceptor max.
Only this bomber can transport 1 Inf.Are these values for Heavy Bombers ? Cost seems to low.
The issue is about balancing between bomber (D12) A0 D0 C5, SBR @2, 1D6 damage vs Fg A4 D4 or 5 C7 and heavy bomber. At 10 IPCs, it is rather better to buy 2 bombers C5, 2D6 dmg than investing in a Heavy 1D6+2.
Since move is 6-8, rising to 7-9 will be unhistorical. So, the only increase seems OK is to introduce it as a combat unit with no defense for 3 IPCs higher than bomber, with small increase in firepower. (C8 is same as DDs) -
Technology hasn’t been a major factor in my games, since most people I play with think the game has enough going on already without this extra layer added on top of things. That said I do like that there is a tech option for G40 for those who want it. Personally I preferred the AA50 token system to what we have in 1940. It’s also been kind of interesting on occasion in the past, when some players have used auto tech with different options for each nation as a balancing alternative. Fixing the tech in G40 isn’t my top priority right now, but it would certainly be nice to have as part of the grand plan.
For the moment I don’t see a serious issue with the heavy bombers tech advance under the defensless bomber HR. That tech calls for rolling 2d6, and choosing the better result with heavies. So it still works here for a unit that is more effective at SBR for the cost.
The OOB paratroopers tech advance is associated with the Airbase unit rather than the bomber, so again its not really affected by the HR.
The question about whether the entire tech system deserves a rework is definitely still something to consider, and appropriate to the overall theme of this thread. But that’s looking a bit further over the horizon, than where my gaze is fixed at the moment. Not sure if I have any worthwhile insights to offer.
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SS is going to play on week end.
And he was trying Fg vs TcB of my own HR but wanted to introduced StBs in the mix.
Since he has a lot of units in his Global War customized version, one thing call the other.
That is why I made a suggestion for relatively balanced Heavy Bomber. That way, Bomber A0 D0 C5, A0 D6 (in his game StB have A2 (D12) in SBR to balance for Fg A4D4 C7 targeting plane) damage remains play-testable without scraping units of his roster. -
Thank You Baron for posting this. You beat me to it.
I will be posting results in the Global War thread in the Global War 1940 2nd Edition post.
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I throw the ball.
Supposed we don’t want anymore Submarines used as naval fodder and fleet padding.
And more naval presence around the globe.
And we must stay within Triple A parameters, and cannot change core mechanics, such as planes vs Subs or DDs vs Subs.
@Black_Elk:I’ll admit to being somewhat torn. On the one hand I think Baron’s unit interactions are excellent and very well thought out, and I also recall the development process over time in countless threads, so I’ve seen how its grown into a pretty complete overhaul. But I also know that people may be reluctant to adopt a series of sweeping changes to the roster. For those who want the familiar OOB combat system just with a different “campaign” dynamic (different NOs, incomes or starting unit distributions) a complete redux of the combat phase might put them off, since it requires you to learn a lot of new things.
I would say that threshold here for me is whether or not the unit interactions can be easily handled in tripleA, without requiring a bunch of new code, or the introduction of new phases and the like.
Do you think this cheaper and weaker Destroyer can be a better escort and naval fodder unit?
No more DD A2 D2 C8.DESTROYER (Escort) A1 D1 M2 C5 IPCs,
1 DE blocks any number of Submarines’ abilities:
Surprise Strike,
Stealth Move in CM and NCM, and
Submerge.SUBMARINE A2 first strike D1 first strike M2 C6 IPCs
first strike when no enemy’s DD present, same for first strike roll on defense
blocked by DD on 1: x basis Surprise Strike, Stealth Move and
Plane cannot hit unsubmerged Submarine during combat round without Destroyer presence.
(If a Sub submerge during first strike phase, plane can not hit Sub.)
Submarine cannot hit aircrafts.TRANSPORT
A0 D0 M2 C7 IPCs, no hit, taken as last casualty.
Carry 2 units, 1 Inf + 1 any ground unit
No defense against surface warships, aircrafts, submarines.
Can unload in a Sub infested SZ if escorted by surface warships.Such increase in hit/IPCs (from .125 to .20) ratio probably requires changing a few warship cost.
CRUISER A3 D3 C10 M2, 1 hit, gets
First strike 1AA @1 against up to 2 plane, whichever the lesser
Shorebombardment @3.Battleship A4 D4 C18 M2, 2 hit, gets
First strike 1AA @1 against up to 2 plane, whichever the lesser
Shorebombardment @4. -
Could work. I don’t see any major issues, beyond just the challenge of getting players to adopt it.
The main point I was trying to make in the quote above, is that I think there are some players for whom HR unit changes are no big deal to implement. Some other players will probably reject any HR unit changes out of hand, as just requiring too much mental gymnastics during the combat or purchase phase, and probably never be willing to try. But beyond this, I think there may be a middle ground somewhere too, where some players, who might not otherwise consider a new HR unit roster, would actually try it, provided it had some compelling printable materials to accompany it.
For example, if you had a custom battle board (describing the combat relationships) and a purchase crib sheet (describing all the ablities/costs/special rules), that players could print out easily for use in face to face games.
A reasonably well designed custom battle board, that looked at least as slick as the OOB battle board, would give any HR unit roster a degree of gravitas. It would suggest a sense of polish and finality, that you just can’t get with simple text. I think this would make the HR roster more compelling, because it’s a bit like a stamp of approval (indicating a certain air completion to the HR) like “hey, if they spent this much time designing a custom battle board for us to print out, that must mean these rules are set. Maybe it really is worth a try!”
Hehe I don’t know, my Photoshop skills aren’t the best, but I think it would help. This of course assumes a more concrete HR roster, that everyone can get behind, which is hard to achieve when so much is still in flux. But at some point, a printable battle board might ice it.
One reason why I think the defensless strat bomber idea (with OOB tacs) might actually work, is that it only requires you to ignore information on the boxed battle board, rather than necessitating a new battle board. Basically you just ignore the strategic bomber icons, but all the rest of the stuff is the same. With more comprehensive changes I think we’d need something more, like a new custom battle board.
In tripleA all this is a non issue, because the battle board is built into the game. But for face to face play, I think having a glossy printout would definitely help to sell some of these ideas you’ve put forward for HR units.
Another option (maybe simpler?) is to make something more generic out of the battle board. Like a universal template, or HR battleboard sheet, that can be printed on the fly… with the attack and defense columns at hit 1-4, but the actual units in these columns left blank. In other words you fill in the values yourself. That way it’s easy to alter, or throw away and just print a new one, if you’re trying to add new stuff. In this case the HR battleboard would just be a template, with the critical unit information left blank, to be filled in by the player. I think it would be a useful tool to have, since it allows for easy modification.
That said, I think the most convincing approach would still be a fully realized battleboard, with the silhouette graphics and all the rest. Basically forces us to stand behind the final HR unit changes with a loud statement like “These values are best! Just look at the extra time we spent trying to make it look good.”
:-DNot that we are necessarily at this point yet. But a custom card like that would be a self imposed restraint against constant revision.
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I hate battle boards personally, but I can understand when dealing with HR they can be beneficial. I like the attribute charts showing cost, attack defense, etc… and a battle board is just a graphical representation of that minus some of the information.
I would put one of these together, though I would have to use a photoshop knockoff. This is something I have been menaing to do once I put together a HR set I am comfortable with. Who knows when that will be…
If you are looking for someone (at some point), Siredblood has been pretty active lately in Customizations in re-creating the G40 map and other items. His stuff looks very good and he would certainly have the talents for such a project.
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I find that I only use them when playing with new people, or people who are new to a given board. For instance, when introducing G40 to someone who is familiar with A&A but might get confused by some of the new units, or units that underwent changes from say 1942.2 or Revised. Otherwise most people I game with have all this stuff memorized by now. Though I think when you’re talking about a more significant overhaul, the utility of an easy reference card increases in proportion to the number of changes being made from OOB.
If all we are changing is the costs, or if the focus is narrow (changing a single unit, or adding a single unit to the roster), there is less of a need. Whereas if you want to create a whole new roster that departs from OOB quite a bit, I think it would be helpful.
When you get down to it though, the advantage of having a printable card would be more psychological than practical. It’s aim is more for initial persuasion than anything else. Like “why should we trust you, and use your unit ideas over anyone elses?” To which you could reply, “here’s a slick printable reference, and a tripleA map file, ready to go.”
:-DI think most of us can be counted on to do some pretty elaborate things with our own boards at our own houses. But one of the reasons we come to places like A&A.org, is a desire to get with the larger group. To try ideas that are already in use among other playgroups, or to convince those people to try things that we do locally. It’s like a safety in numbers approach. Helps with the credibility if you can point to a popular thread or sticky on a semi-official forum. Helps even more if you can point to popular game file in tripleA, or wave a flashy printout around haha.
I think I might have ducked Baron’s specific questions above. But just to say that I know some people in my group who would try it. Others who would likely grumble and propose we just play by the book. Among those in the first category, they are always more receptive to an idea if I can demonstrate that it has some broader appeal among the A&A community writ large. Or has been tried before with such and such results. Makes a stronger case all around.
For example, they were pretty excited about Halifax up until the point when YG said his group was no longer using those rules. Then it was like, ‘do we really want to take the time to learn all this extra stuff, if other people have already moved on to something else?’ Similarly they were pretty interested in the balanced mod concept when I showed them the game file in tripleA. Though in that case there were questions raised about whether the gameplay was sufficiently different from OOB, to make the rules overhead worthwhile.
Bare in mind that when I say “my local group”, I’m really only talking about like 5 other people besides myself haha. And if I’m being realistic, probably only one or two other players besides myself who have a genuine interest in house rules. So personal predispositions are definitely a factor in what they’re willing to try. I’m not sure how representative they are, but I’m guessing it’s probably the same with many play groups. One or two people who like HRs, and one or two people who just want to play the way everyone else is playing.
:-D -
Ps. Just a quick follow up on why I like to prioritize tripleA.
In my case, I had a pretty solid face to face group about a year ago. 2 reliable opponents, one in particular who was always ready to play a multisession game with HRs till the sun came up. Then you toss in the “I have a cousin” or “my buddy is in town and wants to play too” so it wasn’t too terribly difficult to get a Global Game up off the ground.
More recently though, my main A&A playing friend got married. So he’s hitched up and basically out of commission for anything live, other than the semi-annual match ups. You know, like a game of G40 for the winter holidays, and maybe another one in the summer haha. But for all intents and purposes, my ability to reliably play test HRs face to face is shot.
That leaves me with tripleA as the most consistent way to maintain a play group, and to test HRs. But I still like the idea of ready compatibility between face to face games and tripleA, so that when those seasonal face to face matches do arrive, we can still play the same way we do on the machine.
This creates some basic parameters we like to stick to. Can the HR be easily edited into tripleA? Can it port from there onto the physical map with equal ease? If so, then its a good candidate. If not we scrap it and try something else. This has lead me to discount many HRs as impractical in tripleA, but which might otherwise be fun face to face (or vice versa). And then to end up trying other things which might not have seemed immediately obvious, just for a more simplistic implementation.
Either way though, the threshold for G40 is pretty damn high, even if we’re just playing digitally. Which is why I really like rules that could have an application in 1942.2 as well, if only because it’s so much easier to play that one face to face, when friends are in town for a multi. It’s also a good stepping stone for introducing basic ideas, that could later be incorporated into the more advanced G40 game, once people have been exposed to it in 1942.2.
The main issues I’m usually trying to address are…
1. Balance by Sides: to equalize the chances for a win.
2. General pacing: things that speed up the game.
3. Variety: ways to make each play through feel unique.
4. Historical realism: encouraging play patterns that feel sufficiently like WW2.Trying to find simple rules that can achieve all of those at once can be daunting. But it’s still the goal to find the simplest tweak that fits the bill.
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Yeah, the first problem with House Rules is gaining widespread adoption. People are reluctant to accept unofficial revisions for a number of reasons, but the hardest obstacle is simply overcoming the initial opposition or lack of acceptance/use. If you can get past that coefficient of friction to the point where many, even if not most, people are using it and finding it universally good, the success becomes easier to sustain and push into official-but-unofficial territory. I think of bids as being that way. Bidding is a widely accepted method to fix a perceived game weakness using an method not found int the rulebook. A bid is more of a pre-game handicap than a true rule though, so the analogy is not fully accurate.
Second problem with House Rules is permanence. As you mentioned, House Rules - especially entire rule sets with multiple OOB changes - are often completed only to be later further revised or abandoned. This gives the impression that HRs are unstable and unreliable. The unstable perception is one thing we can control based on our consistency, attention to detail and supporting evidence through playtesting. It will also take a lot of self-control on our part not to meddle with rules after they are introduced. Approaching each component HR in a measured manner with specific intentions for fixes will help to keep things organized and logical.
Playtesting is immensely important throughout the process for the sake of credibility. We need unbiased data which confirms that any changes made to OOB rules make for 1) more balanced gameplay, 2) more fun/user firendly gameplay and 3) more diverse gameplay than that which is achieved OOB. I am not entirely sure how to best represent that data. Maybe through TripleA game results/logs or probability calcs for specific units.
I am approaching this topic with the assumption that we who have been contributing here, and Black_Elk in particular, really want to see the changes we propose being used for more than simply some obscure House Rules on an internet forum. The best way to achieve more widespread recognition for them is to have hard data backing up whatever changes are made.
Kinda sounds like a mission statement, but I don’t know if everyone else is of the same mind.
EDIT: wrote all this as you were posting above Black_Elk… sounds like we are thinking along similar lines at least.
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Yeah, the first problem with House Rules is gaining widespread adoption. People are reluctant to accept unofficial revisions for a number of reasons, but the hardest obstacle is simply overcoming the initial opposition or lack of acceptance/use. If you can get past that coefficient of friction to the point where many, even if not most, people are using it and finding it universally good, the success becomes easier to sustain and push into official-but-unofficial territory. I think of bids as being that way. Bidding is a widely accepted method to fix a perceived game weakness using an method not found int the rulebook. A bid is more of a pre-game handicap than a true rule though, so the analogy is not fully accurate.
Second problem with House Rules is permanence. As you mentioned, House Rules - especially entire rule sets with multiple OOB changes - are often completed only to be later further revised or abandoned. This gives the impression that HRs are unstable and unreliable. The unstable perception is one thing we can control based on our consistency, attention to detail and supporting evidence through playtesting. It will also take a lot of self-control on our part not to meddle with rules after they are introduced. Approaching each component HR in a measured manner with specific intentions for fixes will help to keep things organized and logical.
Playtesting is immensely important throughout the process for the sake of credibility. We need unbiased data which confirms that any changes made to OOB rules make for 1) more balanced gameplay, 2) more fun/user firendly gameplay and 3) more diverse gameplay than that which is achieved OOB. I am not entirely sure how to best represent that data. Maybe through TripleA game results/logs or probability calcs for specific units.I am approaching this topic with the assumption that we who have been contributing here, and Black_Elk in particular, really want to see the changes we propose being used for more than simply some obscure House Rules on an internet forum. The best way to achieve more widespread recognition for them is to have hard data backing up whatever changes are made.
Kinda sounds like a mission statement, but I don’t know if everyone else is of the same mind.
EDIT: wrote all this as you were posting above Black_Elk… sounds like we are thinking along similar lines at least.
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Cost can be the same as OOB or keep similar ratio structure.
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Transport is treated as any other surface vessel when allocating casualty: each elligible transport unit worth 1 hit and can be chosen according to owner’s choice, whether before or after a combat unit has been selected as casualty.
OPTIONAL (nearer OOB): Still worth 1 hit and Transports are taken as last casualties. -
If one or more friendly Transport units share the same SZ, it gets a single defense die roll value of 1 per combat round. (Special Convoy Escort Defense)
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Since Submarine and Transport cannot control SZ, they can ignore each other in combat or noncombat move.
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Submarine unit cannot hit, or be hit by, another submarine.
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**Destroyer does not block Sub’s Surprise Strike.**This one may changed depending on which ratio DD can block Sub or is unable to.
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But planes don’t need Destroyer presence to hit unsubmerged Submarines.
So, no defenseless Transport: no no combat value, no taken as last casualty rule; unless this last option is preferred. Taken last is probably nearer original balance too.
No combat value changes for Submarines or aircrafts with/wo friendly or enemy Destroyer presence.
Aircrafts act the same as Cruiser, Carrier, Battleship when making attack or defense rolls against Subs, except Subs cannot hit aircrafts.Since Subs cannot harm enemy Subs, no fleet padding can rely solely on this cheapest unit, Destroyers remain a must against them (and to provide defense rolls against aircrafts).
Submarines full Surprise Strike is counter-weighted by Transport elligibility as casualty and its inability to stop amphibious assault from lonely TPs. -
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@Baron:
Totally agree, I would like to say it the way you wrote it. :-)
My actual struggle is how to get ride of something which depends on game mechanics more than unit combat values. Without TripleA play-test even if I think one HR is good, it is doomed to non-credibility files.
Here I’m thinking about planes-sub-DD-TP complex interactions. Which I know can be simpler and more accurate. But TripleA modifications on software or codes is hardwork.For instance, TripleA changes are much more about units values than anything else.
Except, Barney still managed some extra good upgrades on Cruiser, adding a single preemptive AA capacity, carrying 1 Marines/ Infantry.It should be mentionned as a solid improvement from ordinary modifier like giving M3 to Cruiser (or making StB A3, Barney still goes further by adding combined arms with Fg to get A4).
All these feats allow for a real play-test for Cruiser balance and interest inside roster.
Not a small step, for sure.
But Redesign is more ambitious.Another issue is to about not asking too much for too little impact. For instance, StBs A0 D0 C5, was more easily develop than another SBR I promoted, mainly using OOB 1942.2 mechanics.
But now, I’m actually happy that Barney didn’t work too much on that one since I rather find StB C5 D6 a more elegant unit and keeps all other Fg A1 D1 C10 OOB SBR features while being somewhat balanced.How to be sure an improvement is really one and worth time invested to change a Triple A feature?
My intent is to find somehow an easier way to get a glimpse of a HR change, without requiring a time-consuming works on xml files.
Great!
I do recognizing the issues facing us regarding TripleA modifications, though I cannot claim to understand them fully. However, all of this talk is tempting me to play TripleA again if only to help the cause. I am sure that modifying code is time consuming work. My limited experience in doing so made me want to shoot the computer.
Prioritizing our efforts at what the most important and impactful HRs are is challenging also. There are a lot of little things here and there which sound fun and interesting, but they can’t all be equally important.
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