@Cmdr:
Minor Industrial Complexes: Limited to Infantry, Artillery, Submarines and Destroyers only.
This would go a long way towards solving the Japanese mech drive.
You might have to add transports to that list though, or else a lot of minors would be worthless. Another approach to handling the limitation for pre-War USA, or a nation like Anzac, would be to just give them a starting Major, and skirt the issue.
I’m totally in favor of anything that gets an island campaign going in the Pacific. Outlined many of my thoughts in this thread…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34839.0
Also totally in favor of a new Russian NOs. Lots of ideas here…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34568.0
@Cmdr:
Given how we’ve essentially gone back to “gang up on Russia” as the main strategy, perhaps we need a bigger penalty for violating the Russo-Japanese pact? Maybe, instead of Mongolia, the Russians get 18 IPC worth of units (their choice) on any Russian controlled territory on the Pacific map if Japan attacks and if Russia attacks, Japan gets 9 IPC worth of units (their choice) on any Japanese (originally Japanese, not controlled) territory/sea zone? It might be more of a deterring effect this way. (18 IPC could be 2 tanks, 2 infantry, it’s nothing to skoff at! Also, if Russia gives up their shield AND gives Japan money, they might be less enthused with the idea of DOWing Japan and invading China.)
NAP approaches along those lines would be my preference, just a simple bonus or penalty. Something a bit more consequential than the Mongolian infantry. Oh and on subs or interdiction. We discussed a lot of interesting stuff in this thread…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35687.0
As for adjustments to the turn order. I tried to develop a working concept before. I had a thread outlining some ideas, but nobody ever commented on them haha. So I’m not really sure what people think. I spent a good six months exploring the concept in AA50, and I still think it would be an interesting and relatively easy way to randomize the game…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34157.0
The basic thrust was that, if you wanted to keep the same (or a similar) starting unit set up as OOB, then you need to offset the turn order change with a starting income change. So clearly if you let France open, then you have to compensate the Axis (esp. Germany and Italy) to accommodate them.
@CWO:
Regarding your aspiration for “a feeling of game balance”, here’s one idea you might consider. It isn’t developed, and I don’t have time to develop it because I have to leave in a few minutes, but here’s the essence of it. The starting point would be to prepare an inventory of what factors should be considered when one is assessing the relative advantages of each player power, and how they apply to each power in the OOB game as we know it. An example of this sort of thing is Larry’s statement (in one of the A&A rulebooks) that the Axis starts out strong militarily but weak economically. That’s too general to be useful, but it’s what I’m driving at: Power X might have a whole bunch of strengths and weaknesses that, added up, are very different from the cumulative strengths and weaknesses of Power Y, but which don’t necessarily create an imbalance. (I hesitate to use an analogy from Star Wars Episode III, but I’ll do so for convenience. Someone once said this about the final duel between Obi-wan and Anakin: it’s a fair match because Obi-wan is more experienced and Anakin is more powerful.) Once you have such an inventory, you might have the basis for a randomization system that would vary – within certain limits – the strengths and weaknesses that each power starts out with in each game BUT which somehow makes sure that the “totals” for each power always stay roughly equal. As a purely abstract and ridiculously simple example, let’s say that Power X is allowed to have between 5 and 8 points in Category A and between 2 and 9 points in Category B. In one starting set-up, Power X has values of A=5 and B=4, while in another starting set-up, Power X has values of A=7 and B=2. They’re different set-ups…but they both add up to 9. The same principle (though not necessarily the same number ranges) would apply to the other powers.
I really like this idea, or at least the general direction of the idea. I think something like this is possible.
The more we discuss the more I wonder, what elements of the OOB game we really want to preserve?
To me the Map is core. I think the main purpose of developing a mod, would be to give all those people who spent a couple hundred bucks to acquire the 1940 game maps with a new way to play it. So basically not requiring someone to print out a new map, or acquire a ton of additional game materials. Its reasonable to ask players to find some abstract markers, or to use common readily available things like a deck of cards…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34327.0
But its harder if they need to acquire a whole new set of unit sculpts. That’s why I like CWOMarc’s idea on the previous page, of using the generic national marker to stand in for a special unit of some sort.
Another thing you can do is to cannibalize existing materials to use them in a new way. An example would be some of YGs ideas, to use Anzac or French sculpts for other purposes, like creating new or expanded factions, like the Commonwealth or British Empire Pacific concepts he’s discussed.
There’s a strong advantage to restricting ourselves, at least in principle, to just the boxed materials, (or some new riff on the box materials), because everyone has access to them. It’s generally easier to tweak an existing unit or existing mechanic than it is to create an entirely new one. So those would probably be the best places to start.
Does anyone else feel that the game might benefit, from some form of randomization to starting income?
Randomization within certain limits, of course, but some way to alter those values slightly as a way to create more dynamism in the opening round?
I’m talking here about something as simple as each nation roll 1d6 and adds the result to their starting income. A mechanic like that, carried across 9 player nations would introduce considerable diversity to possible purchasing strategies that could develop in the first round. Instead of a single starting income value in every game, you’d have 54 potential outcomes.
But none of these are like totally insane, “make your brain explode” outcomes. Under this system each nation would be guaranteed at least +1 to starting income over OOB, so already you’d have new purchasing strategies on offer. At the high end +6 you might see some potentially very interesting stuff develop, especially for a weaker nation like Italy or Anzac, which starts with an extremely low starting income value.
On G1 alone you’d have six potential purchases at 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, or 36 ipcs. Expand that sort of thing by all 9 powers, and you have some definite variation in the possible first round buys.
Is it like playing the nickel slots Godfather 2 style? Maybe a little, but at least each Nation gets a chance and everyone wins at least 1 ipc hehe.
Another idea I liked from the previous page was Flashmans suggestion about Gold Reserves.
I don’t know how willing people are to graft historical rationales onto gameplay mechanics which exist purely for entertainment randomization purposes, I know some prefer to move in the reverse direction, from the history to the mechanics. But in a case like this, I think you could come up with an explanation that doesn’t totally break with the games sense of history or historical flow. Its just like one of those small elements that would help smooth over the potential OOB balance deficiencies. I really think Starting Income is one of the simplest things to change in Axis and Allies, because its so abstract to begin with. Like in the OOB game German income doubles after the first round. Through objectives, smaller Nations like Italy or Anzac can triple their income in a very short span of time. So if you’re perfectly fine to see things like that happen with income once the game starts, why not explore some ways to tweak income before the game begins? I think it would be worth looking into. Not sure if the proposal above is something anyone would go for, just a simple 1d6 roll, but a similar idea could be used in conjunction with other possible advantages, in a scheme like the one Marc was just discussing.
For sure Chris Henry! That neutrality point value idea was the most interesting I’ve heard in a while. I like it because it makes neutrality Politics a more subtle part of the gameplay, as opposed to something that is just totally predetermined by the set up cards or the rules.
I don’t see a huge payoff for the Politics system in the OOB game. They are just used as a way to constrain what Player/Nations can do, scripting them into a corner introducing a lot of prohibition type rules (you can’t do X, you can’t do Y, you can’t do A until B or C happens, but only if EFG.) I mean its convoluted in the way politics is hahah, but its just not a terribly engaging aspect of the gameplay. A point system to determine how the neutral powers attach to the major Alliances might provide an alternative.
Other people have suggested a separate Soviet block. Axis and Allies always strikes me as essentially a two player game, and the 3 way is tricky to conceptualize. It’s hard to get three motivated people together in one room, but the 3 way is interesting to consdier. That would surely return us the question of Victory conditions and Alliances. It might be interesting if there were more ways to Win, like a prestige Victory for each Nation.
In the OOB game Victory is tied to a side of the gamemap, and based purely on territorial acquisition. You could have the largest navy in world history, gigantic standing army and a huge war chest, but if you lose the right city at the wrong time, you lose the game. I know we’ve discussed before that there are really only 3 kinds of “Victory” in OOB 1940.
Japan Wins on the TKO in the Pacific.
Germany Wins on the TKO in Europe.
Or Axis give up.
At the very least, we should create a way for Allies to actually win the game outright.
Traditionally I have played Axis and Allies games to Victory by Concession, ie one player just surrenders. But I think its rather poor game design, when you leave it up to the players to determine who wins or who loses based on feelings of hopelessness.
I don’t know if the pool cue analogy is worthwhile, but Axis and Allies needs an 8 ball.
Or hell, maybe 8 ball is the wrong way of thinking about it, maybe 9 ball is better? Where the underdog always has a chance at recovery, if the leading side screws up. Most games don’t resolve the way Axis and Allies does, with one player surrendering. Most games have an 8 ball of one sort or another. Capital capture is the closest thing we have, but even that doesn’t force the game to resolve, it just makes the situation so hopeless for the one who gets conquered that they’re more likely to give up. As it stands the current VC Axis win by Pacific/Europe side of the map, just doesn’t provide the kind of Victory conditions I wish the game offered.
Granted, Wars don’t resolve the way games do, but this is a game first and foremost. To be a good game, it helps if both players have a way to win. Instead of one person having a way to win, and the other one only having ways “not to loose. yet.”
:-D
Ideally both players should have incentives to continue playing until the actual resolution occurs. This doesn’t really happen right now in A&A. A&A isn’t the only game where this sort of thing occurs, often it happens in games that take a very long time to conclude. Risk and Monopoly come to mind. The losing player frequently quits before the game is technically finished. This strikes me as a little problematic, and something it would be worth working on a bit more.
