Wittmann stops the 7th Armour dead at Villers Bocage

@wittmann:

I cannot pinpoint from my sources how many A Squadron tanks Wittmann personally destroyed

Possibly one (Sherman Firefly ‘Blondie’)but that was it.

@wittmann:

so I cannot pinpoint from my sources how many A Squadron tanks Wittmann personally destroyed. His 2nd Company did wipe out the balance of them after his engaging them.

Their is no dispute most of the Cromwells and 4 Firefly tanks in A Squadron were lost but it is also a fact only 3 were engaged and penetrated by Tigers (2 Firefly and 1 Cromwell) because the majority (circa 15-20 tanks) were simply abandoned and/or set on fire by the crews.

@aequitas:

On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann�s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.

No he did not.

4th County Of London Yeomanry consisted of:
RHQ Troop     4 Tanks
Recce troop   11 Stuart tanks
AA Troop       4 Tanks
A Squadron    20 tanks
B Squadron    20 tanks
C Squadron    20 tanks

Attached to HQ Troop were 4 Artillery Observation tanks
In all some 83 tanks.

Wittmann engaged at most 2 Stuarts from Recce Troop, 4 RHQ tanks and 2 OP tanks and possibly the rearmost A Squadron Firefly.
9 Tanks in total

4th CLY lost 25 tanks from the original 83 so any claim Wittmann (or anyone) 'wiped out ’ the whole Regiment is absurd

@aequitas:

FROM “ACHTUNG PANZER” allready translated (this saved my job)

The whole account is riddled with errors. Find a better source. Wiki is much more accurate.

@Lazarus:

@aequitas:

On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann�s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.

No he did not.

4th County Of London Yeomanry consisted of:
RHQ Troop     4 Tanks
Recce troop   11 Stuart tanks
AA Troop       4 Tanks
A Squadron    20 tanks
B Squadron    20 tanks
C Squadron    20 tanks

Attached to HQ Troop were 4 Artillery Observation tanks
In all some 83 tanks.

Wittmann engaged at most 2 Stuarts from Recce Troop, 4 RHQ tanks and 2 OP tanks and possibly the rearmost A Squadron Firefly.
11 Tanks in total

4th CLY lost 25 tanks from the original 83 so any claim Wittmann (or anyone) 'wiped out ’ the whole Regiment is absurd

@aequitas:

FROM “ACHTUNG PANZER” allready translated (this saved my job)

The whole account is riddled with errors. Find a better source. Wiki is much more accurate.

What’s your source Dr. Lazarus?

@Gargantua:

What’s your source Dr. Lazarus?

Gar, it’s called having an imagination, duh! Don’t you remember having one of those?

@Gargantua:

What’s your source Dr. Lazarus?

Simple geography. The position of every tank wreck is known as is the route Wittmann took into the town.
Wittmann could not possibly knock out any more than the 9 tanks on that road  that  came into his direct sight.
Between Wittmann and A Squadron there was a large hill (pt 213) so they never came into contact.

@Lazarus:

@Gargantua:

What’s your source Dr. Lazarus?

Simple geography. The position of every tank wreck is known as is the route Wittmann took into the town.
Wittmann could not possibly knock out any more than the 9 tanks on that road  that  came into his direct sight.
Between Wittmann and A Squadron there was a large hill (pt 213) so they never came into contact.

Based on what Book? Historian? Web-site? or other?

I’d like to review the material.

Wittmann got on to the RN 175 road at Les Haut Vents which is at 185 mtrs, some 28 mtrs below the peak of Pt 213  1200 mtrs (Yellow X)to the right.
He turned left into Villers Bocage and it is  probable he first fired at and  hit the Firefly tank ‘Blondie’ shown below. Wittmanns own account given just after the action mentions only that he fired at 2 tanks to his left before he turned right into Villers where he was knocked out.
Note the crest of Pt 213 in the distance and the complete absence of any other tank wrecks on the road. Blondie is the only one. . A Squadron were  on the other side of the hill.

The 6 wrecked tanks (2 Recce Stuarts and 4 RHQ Cromwells) are at the entrance to the town of  Villers Bocage
Villers bocage is in a depression  some  100 mtrs below Pt 213.
A Squadron were over the crest and on the other side of Pt 213.

The Wiki article on Villers Bocage is the most accurate account on the web.

@Lazarus:

Simple geography. The position of every tank wreck is known as is the route Wittmann took into the town.
Wittmann could not possibly knock out any more than the 9 tanks on that road  that  came into his direct sight.
Between Wittmann and A Squadron there was a large hill (pt 213) so they never came into contact.

Thats right, HILLS! The tanks greatest obstacle, because it’s not like a tank could, ya’know, drive over it or something. One must wonder how the Tank gained such prominence on the battle field with this huge weakness  :roll:

Come on Gar, have you forgotten the ROT (Rule of Thumb) when dealing with Lazarus posts? Remember, whatever he says, the opposite is what really happened.

@aequitas:

On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann�s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.

HE WHO IS ABLE TO READ GOTS THE UPPER HAND!!

It says: Wittmann’s Company…

hätte es vielleicht doch in deutsch schreiben sollen!
should have written it in german!

And regarding sources dear Lazarus, Achtung Panzer is a German source, wiki is not a source it´s more a plattform where everybody could fill in the blanks what he might fits into. I ´ll see if i can get any SIGNAL source or of former members of the CLY or the 22nd Regiment…but allways read with caution, in the end it is all self interpretation.

@aequitas:

@aequitas:

On June 13th of 1944, Wittmann�s company destroyed entire 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment travelling on the road No.175 to Villers-Bocage, at the Hill No.213.

HE WHO IS ABLE TO READ GOTS THE UPPER HAND!!

It says: Wittmann’s Company…

hätte es vielleicht doch in deutsch schreiben sollen!
should have written it in german!

Write it in Greek if you prefer but  it wont change the fact it is wrong.
Neither Wittmann, his entire company, 1st kp, or Pz Lehr came even close to destroying 4th CLY.

@aequitas:

And regarding sources dear Lazarus, Achtung Panzer is a German source, wiki is not a source it´s more a plattform where everybody could fill in the blanks what he might fits into. I ´ll see if i can get any SIGNAL source or of former members of the CLY or the 22nd Regiment…but allways read with caution, in the end it is all self interpretation.

Atchung Panzer is full of errors. You would have to be really desperate to rely on it as any kind of source.
I have checked the Wiki page on Villers and it is by far the most accurate account on the net.
Signal magazine had an article on Villers Bocage but some of the photos it used were not taken at Villers Bocage and one photo was faked to make the  destruction look worse than it was.
You can find the War Diary and Regimental Magazine for 4th CLY online but they were in 22nd Armoured Brigade not 22nd Regiment.

Dear Lazarus, my apologies for mixing Brigade with Regiment up, my bad.

I leave it to this ,that I let have you, your opinion and that I got my view of the events based on what we know and learned from the past.
I also learned ,even when we think we are right ,that one time we all gonna see that we haven´t been right at all and in anything, it all was about to just make the right choices.

That said I agree with you to disagree and leave it totally up to you what ever you are going to do with it.

I put allready out the fact what Wittmanns intension was and don’t wanna fight about numbers and hills.
sincerley AeV…

@aequitas:

I leave it to this ,that I let have you, your opinion and that I got my view of the events based on what we know and learned from the past.

Opinion has no impact on the facts.
It is really simple.
Wittmann drove on to the RN 175 road from Villers Bocage to Caen.
He had 2 choices.
A)Turn right to  Pt 213.
B)Turn left and go into Villers Bocage
He chose ‘B’ the road into Villers.
Thus he drove away from A Squadron and what is more A Squadron was  out of sight behind pt 213.
Wittmann did not even know they were there.

Whilst in Villers Wittmann’s Tiger was knocked out. He was in action a total of perhaps 15 mins and never got anywhere near the location of A Squadron 4th CLY.

Despite this  he is credited with the destruction of all the tanks in A Squadron. He was given a medal that says he knocked out 20+ tanks when he could not possibly have hit more than 9.

The German  kill confirmation system was either seriously  flawed or totally bogus.

I just read this on the Wiki source

Carlo D’Este views Wittmann’s attack as “one of the most amazing engagements in the history of armoured warfare”;[201] Max Hastings calls it “one of the most devastating single-handed actions of the war”;[73] and Antony Beevor claims it was “one of the most devastating ambushes in British military history”.[202] Hubert Meyer goes even further, attributing Operation Perch’s failure solely to Wittmann’s “courage, his tactical and technical abilities and […] the valor, the expertise and the camaraderie of his Panzer crew”.[203]

@Gargantua:

I just read this on the Wiki source

Carlo D’Este views Wittmann’s attack as “one of the most amazing engagements in the history of armoured warfare”;[201] Max Hastings calls it “one of the most devastating single-handed actions of the war”;[73] and Antony Beevor claims it was “one of the most devastating ambushes in British military history”.[202] Hubert Meyer goes even further, attributing Operation Perch’s failure solely to Wittmann’s “courage, his tactical and technical abilities and […] the valor, the expertise and the camaraderie of his Panzer crew”.[203]

Makes no difference to my point. Wittmann was given a medal for destroying 20+ tanks when he got nowhere near that total. Massive overclaim or outright invention? You chose.

@Lazarus:

@Gargantua:

I just read this on the Wiki source

Carlo D’Este views Wittmann’s attack as “one of the most amazing engagements in the history of armoured warfare”;[201] Max Hastings calls it “one of the most devastating single-handed actions of the war”;[73] and Antony Beevor claims it was “one of the most devastating ambushes in British military history”.[202] Hubert Meyer goes even further, attributing Operation Perch’s failure solely to Wittmann’s “courage, his tactical and technical abilities and […] the valor, the expertise and the camaraderie of his Panzer crew”.[203]

Makes no difference to my point. Wittmann was given a medal for destroying 20+ tanks when he got nowhere near that total. Massive overclaim or outright invention? You chose.

This is a totally false claim.

There’s no badge for destroying 20+ tanks in a single day.  (Though there are cumulative badges).

For his actions during the battle, Wittmann was promoted to SS-Hauptsturmführer (captain) and awarded Swords to his Knight’s Cross of the Iron Cross.[38]

The swords surely were appropriate - as this was a significant victory.

Also of note from what I’ve been reading - and perhaps this will help you clarify.

In less than 15 minutes, 13–14 tanks, two anti-tank guns and 13–15 transport vehicles had been destroyed by the Heavy SS-Panzer Battalion 101, the vast majority attributed to Wittmann

Wittman was in command… and got probably the most kills.

The only revisionist in the room - is Doctor Lazarus.

The problem we have Lazarus, is that we’re probably missing the disambiguation of what the Allies considered tanks, and what the Germans considered tanks.

For example - if I’m Wittman.

To me, a Canadian Kangaroo APC would be considered a tank.

To the Canadians at the time… probably not.

@Gargantua:

The problem we have Lazarus, is that we’re probably missing the disambiguation of what the Allies considered tanks, and what the Germans considered tanks.

The award citation:

Corps Headquarters 1st SS Panzer Corps              
 Corps C.P., 13 June 1944
“Leibstandarte”
       On 12/6/44 SS-Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann was ordered to cover the corps’left flank
       near Villers-Bocage, because it was assumed that English armored forces which had
       broken through would advance south and southeast. There were no more panzer-
       grenadiers available.
       Wittmann arrived at the specified time with 6 Panzerkampfwagen VI. The Wittmann
       Company was forced to change positions three times during the night of 13/6/1944
       on account of very heavy artillery fire and on the morning of 13/6/1944 was
       positioned near Reference Point 213 northeast of Villers-Bocage with 5 Panzer-
       kampfwagen VI ready for action.
       At eight o’clock a lookout reported to SS-Obersturmfuhrer Wittmann that a large
       column of enemy tanks was advancing on the Caen - Villers-Bocage road.
       Wittmann, who was in cover with his Tiger 200 mtrs south of the road, saw an English
       armored battalion followed by an English armored troop carrier battalion.
       The situation called for immediate action. Wittmann was unable to get orders to his
       men who had moved off, instead he immediately drove into the English column with
       his tank, firing on the move. This rapid intervention initially split the column. From
       80 meters Wittmann destroyed 4 Sherman tanks, positioned his Tiger next to the
       column and drove, 10 to 30 meters beside it firing in his direction of travel, along the
       column. He succeeded in knocking out 15 heavy enemy tanks in a very short time.
       An additional six tanks were hit and their crews forced to bail out. The accompany-
       ing battalion in armored troop carriers was almost completely wiped out. The follow-
       ing four tanks of the Wittmann Company took about 230 prisoners. Wittmann drove
       on, in advance of his company, into Villers-Bocage. His tank was hit and immobi-
       lized by a heavy enemy anti-tank gun in the center of the town. Nevertheless, he still
       destroyed all the enemy vehicles in range and scattered the enemy unit. Wittmann
       and his crew subsequently abandoned their tank and made their way north on foot
       approximately 15 km to the Panzer-Lehr Division. There he reported to the la, turned
       about with 15 Panzer IVs of the Panzer-Lehr Division and once again headed for
       Villers-Bocage. His amphibious-Volkswagen having meanwhile found him, he then
       drove to the 1st Company, which was deployed along the main street of Villers-
       Bocage and based on his impressions of the battle and the situation committed them
       against the enemy tanks and anti-tank guns still in the town.
       Through his determined action Wittmann and his Tiger tank destroyed the greater
       part of a powerful enemy offensive column already deep in the rear of our front
       - the English 22nd Armoured Brigade - and acting solely on his own initiative, and
       displaying the highest personal bravery, he averted a threat to the entire front of the
       1st SS Panzer Corps. At that time there were no reserves available to the corps.
       With today’s action Wittmann has destroyed 138 enemy tanks and 132 anti-tank
       guns with his tank.
  signed Dietrich
  SS-Obergruppenfuhrer and Panzergeneral der Waffen-SS_

The wording is clear on the definition of tanks knocked out:

" knocking out 15 heavy enemy tanks in a very short time.
       An additional six tanks were hit"

In anyones book that is 21 tanks and if you want confirmation then  we know Wittmann left Russia with a total of 117 kills and the only time he was in action until the award citaion was at Villers Bocage on 13/6/44. There were no other kill claims around to confuse things.

The citation says:

"With today’s action Wittmann has destroyed 138 enemy tanks "

117 in Russia added to the 15 + 6 in the award citation = 138

It is clear that the award citation grants Witttmann 21 knocked out tanks at least and you could also say the mention of
" Wittmann destroyed 4 Sherman tank" means he actually got credit for 25 kills when the max he could possibly claim was 9 tanks.

You prove my point Dr. Lazarus. The Germans considered “Shermans” to be heavy tanks! LOL!

And for the record, the Germans also considered Troops Carriers to be tanks - the whole reason the Canadians invented the Kangaroo APC (Because German infantry always let the tanks pass through to the objective, then attacked the oncoming infantry)

As for the Citation, history books, and comments, they all seem roughly close - with something like 15 tanks being destroyed, and another 6 were debateable.

Where is the discrepancy here?

The only person, and place, I’ve seen anyone say Wittman scored “9” tanks, if from you.  And the photo you posted doesn’t show me anything?

Also keep in mind, that the days following D-Day weren’t exactly “perfectly” organized.

It would not surprise me if the allies had other units/vehicles attached to whatever groups were moving around at the time.

I’m doing more research on the whole subject this afternoon.  We’ll find out what “really” happened either way.