Already Looking Forward to 1914 2nd Edition

OK, but be consistant.

If the Allies can train shock troops, let them have as many as they’re willing to pay for.

If the Germans have the tank tech, let them build whatever they can afford.

Turkey had no modern industrial base, so shouldn’t be able to build anything; just recruit infantry and cavalry. If their Allies can deliver heavy units to Turkish tt then let them be converted to Turkish units.  This is one of the reasons control of the Straits was so important - it was needed to rail supplies from Germany and Austria to Turkey.

Its not a question of liking units, but of wanting them to be available under accurate conditions, and letting the player decide how much of each to buy or train.
Similarly, let the USA convert units built in Britain and France to their own, as long as there is an American army present, though there needs to be a turn where the units are converted and cannot fight.

@Flashman:

Its not a question of liking units, but of wanting them to be available under accurate conditions, and letting the player decide how much of each to buy or train.

We have a winner.

OK, but be consistant.

Like giving Turkey tanks?  Better to take the second option you proposed. NO units or capabilities that were not in the real war. If the game comes with extra pieces throw them away and balance be dammed.

If the Allies can train shock troops, let them have as many as they’re willing to pay for.

But this is a strategic game and the threshold is too small for them to be represented. Germany had corps sized formations of them, that’s 3-6 divisions each. And they had more than one corps.
Allies just really ( only UK, not USA, Italy, France) had a few divisions of elite troops. They were not really called stormtroops, just good units but too small for representation.

If the Germans have the tank tech, let them build whatever they can afford.

Better they don’t build any as you stated before. I agree.

Turkey had no modern industrial base, so shouldn’t be able to build anything; just recruit infantry and cavalry. If their Allies can deliver heavy units to Turkish tt then let them be converted to Turkish units.  This is one of the reasons control of the Straits was so important - it was needed to rail supplies from Germany and Austria to Turkey.

But they got supplies from the CP. So they could build tanks, which in reality is a hand me down from Germany. See it works.

Its not a question of liking units, but of wanting them to be available under accurate conditions, and letting the player decide how much of each to buy or train.
Similarly, let the USA convert units built in Britain and France to their own, as long as there is an American army present, though there needs to be a turn where the units are converted and cannot fight.

Right the allies could build Zeppelins, so let them. They already built airships, so they just stretch them to 700 feet and start bombing Germany. It works.

Germany only built 20 tanks because Ludendorff was too short sighted to see how important they’d become. The Germany player might decide to give priority to tank production; why should he be limited to Ludendorff’s blinkered view?

The Allies probably had as many shock-trained troops as the CPs, why does it matter what organization they were in, at this scale? And again, the Allied players may decide to give them a higher priority than historically, perhaps in response to German tank developments. As long as it can be demonstrated that they had the capability to put the unit in the field, the player must decide for him/herself how many to produce. Or do you suggest that players MUST produce every single unit in historically correct proportions to each other?

Turkey did not, COULD NOT build tanks or anything else other than basic infantry equipment. They got supplies, in fact they got pretty much everything, from their allies, but every single rivet of it had to be physically transported either by sea or by rail to Turkey. These were not in kit form, but fully assembled mechanical units, right up to battleships and bombers.

This is why the Allies decided to attack the straits; they were vital for CP supplies to Turkey, and for Allied supplies to Russia.

As I said, by all means allow Turkey to convert units built in Europe to their own units in exactly the manner of the Goeben and Breslau. You can have as many Turkish tanks as you like as long as the German and Austrian players are prepared to supply them.

Allied shock troops and Turkish controlled tanks were in the war. However small the numbers historically, it should be up to the players to decide how many they want to pay for. Otherwise, where’s the game?

Germany only built 20 tanks because Ludendorff was too short sighted to see how important they’d become. The Germany player might decide to give priority to tank production; why should he be limited to Ludendorff’s blinkered view?

Germany captured more tanks than it built. Why cant the allies not build Zeppelins and bomb Germany?

The Allies probably had as many shock-trained troops as the CPs, why does it matter what organization they were in, at this scale? And again, the Allied players may decide to give them a higher priority than historically, perhaps in response to German tank developments. As long as it can be demonstrated that they had the capability to put the unit in the field, the player must decide for him/herself how many to produce. Or do you suggest that players MUST produce every single unit in historically correct proportions to each other?

They did not and its not even close. They did not employ them the same way anyhow. They were just elite formations on a small scale.

Turkey did not, COULD NOT build tanks or anything else other than basic infantry equipment. They got supplies, in fact they got pretty much everything, from their allies, but every single rivet of it had to be physically transported either by sea or by rail to Turkey. These were not in kit form, but fully assembled mechanical units, right up to battleships and bombers.

Ottomans got what they needed from other CP members, so in a sense they can build the same things, we assume they got bought and railroaded / deployed.

This is why the Allies decided to attack the straits; they were vital for CP supplies to Turkey, and for Allied supplies to Russia.

They didn’t attack them because they cant build tanks. That was for their own reasons.

As I said, by all means allow Turkey to convert units built in Europe to their own units in exactly the manner of the Goeben and Breslau. You can have as many Turkish tanks as you like as long as the German and Austrian players are prepared to supply them.

yea right.

Allied shock troops and Turkish controlled tanks were in the war. However small the numbers historically, it should be up to the players to decide how many they want to pay for. Otherwise, where’s the game?

Ottomans captured British tanks, so like Germany they can build tanks, the cost is the retrofit and repair of lost British tanks. It all works the same.

No it doesn’t.

Building a complex unit and manning a complex unit obtained from elsewhere are not the same thing.

You might as well allow Liberia to build Dreadnoughts on the basis that they could have bought the parts from Harland and Wolff.

What is this obsession with Zeppelins? I’ve already said that the Allies had airships, what’s the problem?

Shock troops were a tactical innovation; there is absolutely no reason why any power could not have trained troops to fight this way. The idea didn’t even come from Germany. Like I say, allow the players to train up their infantry into shock units if they wish. Why just Germany?

Maybe the Get over it issue will continue on this thread after it was deleted.

No it doesn’t.

Building a complex unit and manning a complex unit obtained from elsewhere are not the same thing.

It is for axis and allies. Case in point: how lend lease was handled in AAE99.

You might as well allow Liberia to build Dreadnoughts on the basis that they could have bought the parts from Harland and Wolff.

What is this obsession with Zeppelins? I’ve already said that the Allies had airships, what’s the problem?

Airships are for observation, not strategic bombing of cities.

Shock troops were a tactical innovation; there is absolutely no reason why any power could not have trained troops to fight this way. The idea didn’t even come from Germany. Like I say, allow the players to train up their infantry into shock units if they wish. Why just Germany?

Because it is not Historical. Germans employed these in 1918 and used them to spearhead an entire offensive. Australians and whatnot had a few decent and much smaller formations, never to the extent even close to the German employment. If the game comes with them for allies, i will throw them away.

Even were that the case, and it isn’t, then the Allied players could build all-shock troops armies if they wanted.

Just as the Germans could build all-tank armies if they wish.

Remember, anything other than a German surrender on 11/11/18 is unhistorical. The only history that matters is August 1914 - everything after that is the game.

All of these games are not real versions of what happened. Think about what game have you had where the Russians outproduced the Germans in armour by 5 to 1. I would bet none. The reality was actually more than that. I still believe that is the genius of these games. It gives you the player to decide where to place your countries resources. If you want to build a bunch of tanks for Germany in the WW1 game after a certain turn you should be allowed to do so. As long as you have the resources.  Embrace the historical period in this case 1914-1919. Don’t be a prisoner to it.

Yes, as long as it is plausible.

Allies training 20,000 shock troops is plausible.

Germany building 200 tanks is plausible.

Turkey building anything more formidable than an elastic band powered soap box racer is implausible.

Was it plausible Flash that Germany almost always outproduces Russia in tanks? I say not but I really don’t have a problem with the way the game works. I completely understand you want the game to mirror history to a certain extent the only problem with that is that the Axis would never win. Historically the Central powers had a better chance at victory than the Axis did. In that case a more historically accurate WW1 game is plausible for game play since I know that is what you are looking for. I am in no means saying you are right or wrong I am just giving you my opinion.

Well, Hitler thought so, but like most people he grossly underestimated Soviet industry.

I’m not against certain “balancing” techniques to produce a more uncertain outcome. Generally this does mean exaggerating the starting units & industrial capacity of the Axis, but this is rather different from allowing nations to build types of units they were just not able to produce.

One method I’ve recommended for WWI is that only the CPs can exploit (collect income from) occupied tt, and only they are permitted to invade neutrals. Or at the very least invading a neutral influences the USA against the invader.

I also want to see:

Strategic rail movement
No new factories
No use of occupied factories
Ships able to remain in port
Separate infantry recruitment rules
Terrain types

I.L. at least has listened to my arguments over the years, and it seems most of these will be implemented in his game; I’m not optimistic for the official version.

I.L. at least has listened to my arguments over the years, and it seems most of these will be implemented in his game; I’m not optimistic for the official version.

That is 100%, though i do like to make sarcastic comments on your ideas if extrapolated to conclusion.  Our game does not end based on when Germany Historically falls. We apply a fixed limit that makes the game finished in a more or less fixed time.

The representation of units for some nations and not others is due to making the basic fact pattern of what Historically did occur in the scale and gimping Turkey makes the CP too weak. The other problem is these “Nation fans” who whine about not getting this or that. We understand people will make house rules, so for the most part that’s why they got tanks and armored cars, etc.

I do think when Larry in revised had the optional rules that were generated on a per country basis was totally awesome. Unfortunately I don’t think we will get those in any of these games any time soon. I think this WW1 game would be better had he included some of these do be used by who wants to use them. It wouldn’t ruin the game and it would give players a more realistic feal on a per country basis. I kind of think Flash that would even satisfy you. I think, maybe not.

Remind me of what they were and I’ll tell you if I’d be satisfied. Like you say, probably not.

@GoSanchez6:

I do think when Larry in revised had the optional rules that were generated on a per country basis was totally awesome. Unfortunately I don’t think we will get those in any of these games any time soon. I think this WW1 game would be better had he included some of these do be used by who wants to use them. It wouldn’t ruin the game and it would give players a more realistic feal on a per country basis. I kind of think Flash that would even satisfy you. I think, maybe not.

@Flashman:

Remind me of what they were and I’ll tell you if I’d be satisfied. Like you say, probably not.

I think these were they:

http://axisandallies.wikia.com/wiki/National_Advantages

Ahh, you mean National Advantages!

Trans-Siberian Railway: Your infantry , AA guns, artillery may move 1 space among Russia, Novosibirsk, Yakut & Buryatia.

Don’t quite see the point of that one.

No, don’t like these. Rather abstract, and more stuff to remember that isn’t on the board.

Since My chronology is based on a 4 turn year, I have some winter effects, but they’re mainly to do with certain SZs becoming frozen over and impassable (ships have to spend the winter in port).
Maybe all units attack at -1 in Winter. In Arabia/North Africa it might be -1 to attackers in Summer.
But since Larry’s chronology is nuts (America enters on turn 4!) it’ll probably be impossible to implement these.

Tank salvage is something that could be imported to 1914, but for every power.  If we do get different sculpts for tanks we can repaint a few in enemy colours for salvage units. Fight at -1 (untrained crews?)

With so few unit types its difficult to suggest anything more; if there were a bomber tech then Italy and Russia would start with it.

Maybe Q Ships (UK) - transports that can fire in defence. But I prefer this sort of thing to be handled with event cards for an element of surprise.

Pretty sure the 1 space thing was a typo. I don’t have the physical rulebook readily available, but I am 99% it was two spaces.

If you don’t like those, then you probably won’t like these  :-D:

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=29513.0

Meh, the night bombers one is quite neat.