With that in mind sz109 might be the best staging point for Royal Navy if the RAF is strong, they can scramble up to 6 fighters there. Never considered that before.
Strategic Planner's Improvement and Critique Thread
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Perhaps you could summarise it for us? Regarding Allies Strategy, I’ve got a few thoughts here: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37400.0
As for Axis strategy, pretty much the collective wisdom is J1 DOW, weaken then take down India via sea, G2/G3 DOW etc. Do those things not work for you?
Is there a reason why J1 is wisdom? I did 2 G4J4s (iirc) and 2 G1J1s. I built factories as japan including one in korea. I even lost japan in one of the games.
My eaatern front game is pitiful. I think i bought too many trans and land units as the us as opposed to pure naval buys.
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@strategic:
Is there a reason why J1 is wisdom? I did 2 G4J4s (iirc) and 2 G1J1s. I built factories as japan including one in korea. I even lost japan in one of the games.
I remember various threads about when Japan should declare war, with answers varying between J1, J2 and J3 - so that’s helpful!
My best game as Japan was a J1 against France only, taking FIC, despite the loss of 10 ipcs. Then J2 DoW against UK and US and building in FIC, which in 3 turns came to have a factory, AB & NB. Other factories over time in Kwangtung and Malaya.
That game was against an experienced player and for the first time I felt very much in control as Japan - so much so that I believed I had hit upon the key.
Others have much more experience than me so I hope you’ll hear back from them too.
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The basic argument for J1, specific moves aside, is that Japan starts the game with a ton of war potential from the initial units, but not much income, and not using that war potential to build income into the 60+ range ASAP is wasting it.
I tend to do J2 - you’ll find a thread from not long ago about my I2/J2 strategy - but I’m seeing the merits of J1 as well and don’t rule out doing it for some variety in my gameplay.
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A J3 or even J4 is not bad for certain situations. Especially if you want to come close to finishing off China before taking on the western Allies or if you also want to advance into Russia. This gives you 3 - 4 rounds of going after China and Russia without having to deal with the US, although UK/ANZAC could declare war on you if they want. In most games I’ve seen, they won’t because they will rather collect DEI money and build up to face Japan when they attack.
On the plus side, you should be able to take over most of China and almost totally wipe them out before dealing with the US. You could also eliminate the Russian presence in the east and have free reign on a lot of empty territories up there.
On the minus, your land forces and possibly your air force will be way out of position when the US/UK attacks because they are deep into China/Russia. Also, you still won’t be making a lot of money when you have to take on the Western Allies because all those Chinese and Russian territories are cheap and won’t add much to your economy.
Plus, when dealing with China/Russia, there is nothing for your big powerful starting navy to do, which just drives me crazy. With a J1/J2, you can put your navy to use and catch the Allies off guard and hopefully get some real good gains before the US gets up to full steam.
It also depends on what your US player decides to do. If he/she is going mostly after Germany, Japan can kind of take their time dealing with the “lesser” Allies. If the US is going mostly after Japan first, then most likely Japan will be fighting a delaying action while hoping Germany can pull off the win in Europe. -
A J3 or even J4 is not bad for certain situations.
what are certain situations? can i preplan those situations or are they situations that are based off of what the allies do?
Especially if you want to come close to finishing off China before taking on the western Allies or if you also want to advance into Russia. This gives you 3 - 4 rounds of going after China and Russia without having to deal with the US, although UK/ANZAC could declare war on you if they want. In most games I’ve seen, they won’t because they will rather collect DEI money and build up to face Japan when they attack.
if i do go j3, j4, j2, how do i fake them into thinking I am warring earlier? or how do i not lose my pieces? and how do i turn around and deal with them without them being unstoppable?
On the plus side, you should be able to take over most of China and almost totally wipe them out before dealing with the US. You could also eliminate the Russian presence in the east and have free reign on a lot of empty territories up there.
On the minus, your land forces and possibly your air force will be way out of position when the US/UK attacks because they are deep into China/Russia. Also, you still won’t be making a lot of money when you have to take on the Western Allies because all those Chinese and Russian territories are cheap and won’t add much to your economy.
so even though i like the idea of waiting, how do i fix the loss of income?Plus, when dealing with China/Russia, there is nothing for your big powerful starting navy to do, which just drives me crazy. With a J1/J2, you can put your navy to use and catch the Allies off guard and hopefully get some real good gains before the US gets up to full steam.
very true. if i j1 or j2 dow, what mistakes should i not make? I used cows guide but it did not go so well. one game i basically got booted out of china
It also depends on what your US player decides to do. If he/she is going mostly after Germany, Japan can kind of take their time dealing with the “lesser” Allies. If the US is going mostly after Japan first, then most likely Japan will be fighting a delaying action while hoping Germany can pull off the win in Europe.how do I pull off a win in europe? it sounds terrible but i am bad at that also. and how do i coordinate the two strategies together?
also what are the at war rules? i think i remember them as france, ussr, ukanzac, and us are all independently triggered?
so this makes sense…
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J1 DOW enables you to gobble up much of the DEI on J2. One DEI is typically worth 3 or 4 territories in China or Russia. The income adds up very quickly although you turn on the US war economy by doing so. You also have a national objective for controlling all the DEI, making the control of all of them plus the NO worth something like 20+ IPC per turn?
My J1 typically includes taking the Philippines followed by J2 to take Borneo and two of the DEI (Celebes and maybe Java?). Taking up to those 4 islands turns the Japanese economy on rather quickly, but you have to figure out a plan to control China on the mainland as well. Typically this includes the purchase of a minor industrial complex (or three!) in the first few turns and dedicating income to them producing units until China becomes overwhelmed.
The advantage of never DOW with Japan is that you can force China to submit and march across Russia without US interference early in the game. In effect you transfer much of the Japanese starting warpower (in form of planes mostly) from the Pacific Theater to the European Theater. These can be used to strategic bomb moscow earlier than anticipated, turning off (or down) the production of units Moscow counted on producing to defend with. When the UK player realizes this, they may begin production to get units into Moscow through the Middle East, so be prepared to see China re-opened by the UK in the mid to late game.
Russia has a hard enough time dealing with Germany and Italy, that if Japan is chipping away at income from the Pacific side and eventually gets involved in the siege of Moscow, the Russians are generally going to fall. It also enables the Italians to consider making a play to take Egypt before the Allies can reclaim it to secure an Axis win in Europe. Later on, the abundance of aircraft from Japan can swing through in a 1-2 punch with the Germans to sink any fleets the Allies wanted to use to land in Europe.
All Japan has to do is defend Tokyo in this type of strategy. To me, it is a bit "gamey;’ But I’ve employed it before and won convincingly.
For the Germans, there are a few options out there - but the principal strategy is to sink the UK fleet on G1 and take Paris, followed by massive production of units in subsequent turns to march to Moscow. A solid G1 purchase can sometimes be some navy to keep the UK honest on its purchase (you can theoretically take London early in the game, but its expensive and there are Russians not far from Berlin if you do!). This naval purchase at least feigns that threat and in the long run can delay allied landings on Europe because they cannot simply put up a token defense for all the TT they’ve purchased.
A good rule of thumb as the Germans is to not get “greedy” and split up its units but instead make a massive stack the Russians have to respect and withdraw from strategically. The Russians can launch counter attacks on smaller German stacks which cost the Germans time to wait for reinforcement units if they get too thin. It’s better to risk little of your starting units unless it creates such a gap in the Russian lines that it is worth the losses. As an example, is it really worth that 1 IPC territory to send half your stack there so you can lose 6-8 units defending it so far away from your major production locations? Typically that answer is no, even if you lost 6 INF, you’d need to hold the territory for 18 turns just to recoup the investment.
There are some pretty simple strategies for the German production - all revolve around mass production of a single type of unit. Mech and Bombers are two that are used now - and you can never really go wrong with ARM either. My G2 Purchase is almost always as many ARM as I can get on the board. All subsequent purchases are MEC to catch up and reinforce my stack as it marches towards Moscow and then finally as I stage to sack Moscow, bomber purchases out of Ukraine and the northern Russian IC for effect and final punching power. I want to say my odds (without allied planes there is generally in the (85-90% chance to win the attack on Moscow around G6/G7).
The Italians can get involved (due to timing in the turn) to open up a gap for the Germans to blitz through. We call this a can-opener. In short the Italians send ARM (and/or MEC) towards Russia and attack a territory the Russians are trying to block with only a few units (Italians send their bomber(s) for punching power). This enables the Germans to not only step forward and now land their planes on their big stack, but in some cases, the Germans can blitz ARM through or move MEC in a large stack two spaces into a place the Russians cannot attack and expect to do well in. This turns the Russian strategy to full retreat to Moscow or face losing the capitol earlier than anticipated and with much less losses for the Axis if they do not retreat.
As two of the three Axis players go in the first three turns of the round - the Axis are the ones who dictate the tempo of war; not the Allies. Its difficult to feign war if you have the option and timing to do it and choose not to. Bluffing a DOW is hard to believe when your opponent has the lead and chose to play passive. Your best option for a feigned DOW as Japan is to stage your fleet off of Tokyo or in the Caroline Islands. Both give you options and threat to multiple strategic locations (Philippines, Hawaii, ANZAC in general). I don’t think it can be reiterated enough, as the Axis your job in 95% of games is to go on the offensive as soon as absolutely possible. You have the military advantage, so you should press that advantage and continue to do so until you win or no longer have it (this can happen for the Germans where waiting outside Moscow for a few turns can change the odds dramatically in their favor).
To fix Japan’s income in a delay, your only real option is to go after Russia and the gains there are small. You’re already at war with China and play a back and forth for the Burma road in the early game. Japan’s not focused on Income as much when its marching towards Moscow anyways. It’s defending Tokyo and turning the Russians off.
Mistakes not to make in China are the following:
1. Ensure the Chinese do not get access to ART by denying the Burma road. The rest falls into place if they cannot go on the offensive except in trying to reclaim the Burma road.
2. Abuse the power of your size-able starting air force. Sending 2 bombers on top of 2 INF could secure your flank and corner the Chinese. You may not need those bombers when you’re sending 5 FTR and 5 TAC to deny Burma anyways.
3. Establish a supply line for reinforcements into China. I’ve found minor complexes to be more cost efficient than additional TT that need to be escorted and defended from Allied planes or ships. As these locations are in coastal China, they can later produce 1 INF, 1 ART and 1 TT to start shuttling units across the Pacific in the future once China has bowed down.
4. Be prepared to exchange Japanese Aircraft to achieve your goals. Taking territory could be more valuable (in time) than trying to replace those 2 INF three turns from a complex.
5. Abuse the speed of MEC. Their two space movement gets them into lots of fights very fast and makes them effective fodder for overpowering aircraft attacking with them.In order for Japan, you want to:
1. Deny the Burma Road
2. Secure DEI for Income (And deny it to the Allies).
3. Siege / turn off Calcutta’s production for UK India.
4. Take Sydney or Hawaii afterwards.Number 4 is the hardest to project because of all of the variables at play, but the first 3 are fairly straight forward from a scripted / strategic planning perspective.
In order for Germany, you want to:
1. Sink the UK fleets with minimal losses
2a. Ensure you take Paris
2b. Help Italy expand economically if you can (FTR in Rome to Scramble for example).
3. Drive towards Moscow without being greedy
4. Threaten early Allied landings by projecting power via either bombers or a G1 Naval purchase. -
@strategic:
Is there a reason why J1 is wisdom?
Simplistic short answer is that you can weaken India really quickly - UK1 they should be getting 10, UK2 they should be getting 5, thereafter 3, assuming maximum reasonable convoy disruption. Combined with strat bombing, they probably won’t be producing any units after a few turns and quickly fall.
You also get a factory and NO from taking down India. Note that this strategy hasn’t occurred much in our games, but I understand it and will probably try it aggressively next game.
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@strategic:
A J3 or even J4 is not bad for certain situations.
what are certain situations? can i preplan those situations or are they situations that are based off of what the allies do?
It’s based on what the axis do. As others have said, axis lead, allies react. Although you can’t be completely reactive as Allies.
If Japan doesn’t declare war J1 and the US goes full atlantic, staying at peace until J4 makes total sense. That way the US can’t help out Russia. And the UK has enough trouble just surviving.
Japan has a bit of bother to take down China though, even without the other allies helping out. Without UK help, you can generally get into Yunnan J3. UK generally needs to be at war UK2 to protect that or choose to abandon it, perhaps to help USSR against Germany.
Regarding winning in Germany/USSR, a G2 DOW with a strong assault on the weaker path generally nets a factory unless you really stuff up. If going via the Northern route you need pretty massive reinforcements from Germany. Southern path can net two factories and a territory worth 2IPC which can hold another factory. This is less reliant on reinforcements from Germany.
@strategic:
also what are the at war rules? i think i remember them as france, ussr, ukanzac, and us are all independently triggered?
so this makes sense…
Aren’t they in the manual? UK/France at war with Italy/Germany. UK/Anzac/US at peace with Japan. USSR also at peace with Japan but not influenced by other DOW. Similarly with USSR vs Italy/Germany.
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"In effect you transfer much of the Japanese starting warpower (in form of planes mostly) from the Pacific Theater to the European Theater. These can be used to strategic bomb moscow earlier than anticipated, turning off (or down) the production of units Moscow counted on producing to defend with. When the UK player realizes this, they may begin production to get units into Moscow through the Middle East, so be prepared to see China re-opened by the UK in the mid to late game.
Russia has a hard enough time dealing with Germany and Italy, that if Japan is chipping away at income from the Pacific side and eventually gets involved in the siege of Moscow, the Russians are generally going to fall. It also enables the Italians to consider making a play to take Egypt before the Allies can reclaim it to secure an Axis win in Europe. Later on, the abundance of aircraft from Japan can swing through in a 1-2 punch with the Germans to sink any fleets the Allies wanted to use to land in Europe.
All Japan has to do is defend Tokyo in this type of strategy. To me, it is a bit “gamey;’ But I’ve employed it before and won convincingly.”
Boy do you have it right. We used to think 3 powers against UK or US was gamey, but 3 powers against USSR is just broken, which is why absent altering Russia (and the bid never seems to go to Russia based on the fact they cannot attack! imo) it would be hard to fix the G40 scenario.
But, make Russia stronger and it will either be too tough for Germany and Italy alone or too weak for all 3 axis.
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A minor point but I’ve noticed that you (strategic planner) haven’t balanced your fighters and tac bombers properly on G1. 2 fighters go to SZ111 while 2 fighters and 4 TBs go to SZ110 IIRC. Should be even. Makes 1/6 of a hit per battle on the first round difference, possibly continuing to the second.
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Boy do you have it right. We used to think 3 powers against UK or US was gamey, but 3 powers against USSR is just broken, which is why absent altering Russia (and the bid never seems to go to Russia based on the fact they cannot attack! imo) it would be hard to fix the G40 scenario.
But, make Russia stronger and it will either be too tough for Germany and Italy alone or too weak for all 3 axis.
The real problem is two fold:
1. Allied income and potential production is lacking in Europe.
2. The cost to transport units across an ocean is astronomical in comparison to the cost of the Axis massing units with range / movement to reach Moscow.That means we can:
1. Bump Allied Income in Europe, or
2. Increase Allied production in Europe, or
3. Decrease the expense to transport ground units across the Atlantic, or
4. Change the units the Axis employs to slow them down, or
5. Change the map in Russia to buy the Allies more turns before Moscow is on the brink of collapse.I’d argue the Allied bid should be the option to place 1 TT per turn (counts towards production limits) per starting IC in Europe.
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Global is a very deep game. It takes a long tie to learn it, a longer time to play it well, and most of us never get really good at it. The point is to keep playing and learning and habe fun with it. Keep at it s.p. :-)
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Had a look here: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37118.0;topicseen
Was there a reason Germany continued beyond the first round in SZ111? If you retreat, your battleship is repaired G2 when theirs is still damaged - you will retreat to a naval base but they don’t have one there.
DOW G1 is not normally advised. Those 3 tanks in Gr Sth Germany are better used assisting in France.
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@strategic:
Perhaps you could summarise it for us? Regarding Allies Strategy, I’ve got a few thoughts here: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37400.0
As for Axis strategy, pretty much the collective wisdom is J1 DOW, weaken then take down India via sea, G2/G3 DOW etc. Do those things not work for you?
Is there a reason why J1 is wisdom? I did 2 G4J4s (iirc) and 2 G1J1s. I built factories as japan including one in korea. I even lost japan in one of the games.
My eaatern front game is pitiful. I think i bought too many trans and land units as the us as opposed to pure naval buys.
Reflecting on my own games and what I’ve seen of others, I would say that a J1 DOW would work much better with an abandon China strategy. Otherwise it is probably better to weaken China first. Not sure if that’s the conventional wisdom though. Although I couldn’t bring myself to abandon China on J1.
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I have seen posts in the past advocating J1, often in great detail, maintaining that the risk to J’s attacks on all fronts are only marginally increased. Certainly not advocating that J abandon China.
Personally, though, I agree with simon 33. A J2 DoW on UK/US. But I have tried a J1 on France allowing the development of bases/factories in FIC from the earliest opportunity. FIC has a critical role to play for J.
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@strategic:
I would like to thank my opponents (especially JDOW) for suffering and working through it all with me. I want the brutal truth because it will set it up. I tried to do two G1J1 games and two G4J4 games for fun.
You are welcome :-)
The “brutal” truth is that you should not bother about concepts like J1 or J2 or J3 DOW or when to attack Russia but get familiar with the basic game mechanics.
- Don’t put your armies or fleets to places where they get slaughtered with no counterattack
- Make optimal attacks and don’t let your air idle when they could support
- Don’t make suicide attacks at a regular base as you do
This is far more important for you then having DOW discussions about Japan.
It’s similar to chess. Learn the basic tactics first and then continue with some positional principles. Learn this before bothering about if Sicilian, Caro Kann or whatever is the “best” response to e.g. e4.
Good luck.
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That’s some very sound advice, JDOW.
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DOW G1 is not normally advised. Those 3 tanks in Gr Sth Germany are better used assisting in France.
Getting Russia down is the one and only objective Germany has in that game. So DOW1 on Russia is a but risky but a valid strategy because it take several Russian units out.
In order to compensate the missing tanks Germany should definitely let 111 or 110 go or even both seazones to get firepower at France with the Luftwaffe.Exposing air to the French AA is a calculated risk Germans can definitely take.
It is a general mistake that beginners stretch the German forces too much at G1 (often attacking Normandy and SF that turn). Diluting the France attack to 90-95% odds not yet understanding that 95% and 99% makes a HUGE differences. You could describe it in other words: 95% is failing 5 times as often as 99% and even more important: winning is not everything. Germany taking France with 1 tank remaining is a pyrrhic victory and Germany is almost lost when losing almost all ground units in France G1.
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