Guess that makes sense – but aren’t the transports still committed???
I thought its “all in” on an amphib assault.
They will die no matter what why let the carrier die too ??
honestly, if you let your opponent make a blunder like that… you may as well not even play. There are lots of rules to global, got to remind people.
just think about it… he probably thought A) wtf is this scrambling shiz? B) his fighters would engage in the seazone before going to nov. Either way people don’t like global because it is too much rules to read through before you can play… most people dive in and see how it goes, from those dude’s perspective I would just say, “ok I am done with this game.”
Axis and allies is easy to play as far as basic overall strategy goes, obviously the axis are going for capitals and stuff along the way. Even the math is easy to learn, more stuff = higher probability of more hits = stuff dies faster = less casualties.
Then there is about 205 pages of FAQ to go through, which makes learning the game a chore.
Give the guy a break.
Guess that makes sense – but aren’t the transports still committed???
I thought its “all in” on an amphib assault.
They will die no matter what why let the carrier die too ??
Read the section of the rulebook on page 19 of the europe rulebook on retreating. If the attacker retreats from a battle, including a sea battle, ALL attacking sea units retreat, including transports.
The third paragraph under land combat on page 17 covers this situation pretty well; if the transports retreated from the sea zone, they still have their cargo on board, and any other units committed to the land battle have to fight one round before being eligible to retreat.
If you are not playing in a tournament game, I would say something to your opponent right at the end of combat move about what your scramble can do to his attack so he or she can change the move.
The scrambled Fighter only gets one shot. Therefore it can only sink one transport, if he rolls a hit. The attacker can then choose to retreat (and does!)
If there had been an Aircraft Carrier it could have absorbed the one hit and spared the loss of one Transport.
Only defending Transports are eliminated if attacked and all their escorts are sunk. Not attacking ones unless they are hit.
The land units would not die because they cannot unload whilst the defender controls the SZ, which he does if a scrambled Fighter is present.
What’s funny, is that after retreating your carrier and transports, without the troops on the ground going into Novgorod… the planes you committed there will most likely die an untimely death.
Hahaha :D
Good move by the Russians!
Correct. I did something similar once. He attacked with 7 loaded transports and no defensive ships. I scrambled 1 fighter and sunk all the loaded transports.
In this case, since your fighter could not possibly sink the carrier in one round - the carrier (damaged or not) and all loaded transports would be allowed to retreat - or press the attack (which would be stupid, but it is their option!)
so if the transports are completely unescorted they all die instantly? I think that after 1 round, they can retreat.
No. -They do not die unless hit if they are the attacker. As you said, attacking units can retreat.
If they are the defender, then they all die if unescorted when attacked, because they cannot retreat.
@Cmdr:
What’s funny, is that after retreating your carrier and transports, without the troops on the ground going into Novgorod… the planes you committed there will most likely die an untimely death.
Hahaha :D
Good move by the Russians!
Correct. I did something similar once. He attacked with 7 loaded transports and no defensive ships. I scrambled 1 fighter and sunk all the loaded transports.
Yeah this should not have happened, unless there was somehow no place for his trns to retreat to. Attacking transports are seldom defenseless, they actually have to be hit unless they cannot retreat from the battle.
They have to physically retreat. They loaded in SZ 127 (from Finland) and attempted to land in Novgorod. There was an American destroyer in SZ 125. He would have been safe (he had some fighters in Finland and he had purchased an AB there) but he amphibioused without fighter cover (they went for the attack.) So yes, all transports and their cargo were lost at sea.
The same thing happened to me in the Philippines, with my loaded Japanese transports and an aircraft carrier, we all agreed that it was an automatic kill so I removed them from the board. The extra salt in the wound came just a minute ago when this thread told me that I had retreat options for my loaded transports, because the Allies only had 1 fighter to scramble and my carrier would have soaked a hit.
Scrambling is a method of tactics and if a team mate of mine ever warned the opposition that a scramble was possible, I would slap them upside the head. How ridicules would I sound if I were playing chess, and told my opponent that I could reach his queen with my bishop if he moved it there?. The rules say that everyone must look for and point out convoy disruptions… so I do, but it doesn’t say anywhere that I have to warn my opponent of my own scramble opportunities.
I lost all my ships because I messed up, twice if you count the fact that I could have saved my transports by remembering the retreat rules. Thats how I prefer it to go down, because I will never make that mistake again, and my opponents know that I won’t give quarter if they make it, because they to would never forgive an error like that.
I don’t want to hear this crap about… it’s only a game. I know that and I forgive many mistakes in this “game”. but 2 things are unforgivable…
1. Making more combat movements, or changing combat movements after declaring that your phase is done.
2. Trying to make your purchase phase after the resolve combat phase, because you forgot to buy.
All that stuff I talked about scrambling falls into point #1. You declare where the air units from the carrier will fight during the combat movement phase, on land or in the sea zone, it matters due to the scramble opportunity. If you say land and I scramble my plane from a visible air base to sink all your sh!t… than congratulations, you just learned a lesson.
When I screwed up I said, “Ok… my combat movement phase is done, now I’m going to resolve combat. There are no strategic bombing raids, but I have 1 amphibious assault in the Philippines before I proceed with general combat, so I will roll for my infantry…” Thats when my opponent said… “Wait… I want to scramble my plane and destroy all your ships”. He didn’t say… “Just so you know… I’m about to scramble my plane and destroy your ships, unless you want to take a few minutes and redo your entire combat movement phase”
Homy don’t play dat.
I partially agree with you YG.
In a league or tournament game, I agree with you whole heartedly. If you forget to walk into a territory or make a necessary combat move before throwing the dice, then you’re screwed and I don’t want to hear about it. Sorry, it’s a game for credit and you should know better before getting into the pool with the big boys and girl.
If it is a game for fun, then I disagree with you. This is a game for fun, players may be learning, or have a strong relationship with each other. For instance, if Emperor Mollari (as he was known here) had forgotten to attack S. Ukraine - which was undefended at the time - before throwing dice, or hell, even as he was placing units; then I would have been okay with allowing the move. Same in reverse, he was never one to stick it too you just because it was the rules (except in league or tournament, as it should be there!)
What I have come to realize over the years is this: When you are playing this game for fun, the rules are precisely what you agree they are. I’ve played many a game where someone buys before moving at all, or even when I played my brother, he would ROUTINELY purchase his units before my turn was even over (he didnt put the money in the bank, but he had them out and ready.) Of course, back then it was an overpowered strategy for the US to buy a battleship every round (Classic) because Japan (which never got more than 23-30 IPC) could not match them. We didnt know better, and hell, we got the rules wrong (but they were agreed on!) For instance, we thought a “bridge” with a transport meant unlimited units could use the one transport as long as they started in the same zone and went to the same zone to attack. (Hey, it was like what, 1990? 1987? Something like that.)
Point is, For Fun: means (to me) rules can be relaxed, mistakes can be forgiven - if both sides agree. League/Tournament: rules are set in stone, you have to stick them to your opponent so that the game is the same as all other games - even playing field.
Just my two copper coins. Take it or leave it.
You can have a game for fun with players of equal skill level, and still hold everyone accountable for their mistakes.
@Young:
You can have a game for fun with players of equal skill level, and still hold everyone accountable for their mistakes.
Yes, but I usually do not choose to do so. It depends on who I am playing as well. For me, having a rules nazi (term appropriate in my mind because we’re talking a game of WWII!) in a game for fun, isn’t fun for me. That is regardless of if I am a stickler for a rules, or they are.
Again, league/tournament is different. These are more “professional” games, in my mind. Everyone should be thoroughly versed in the rules - and if you make a mistake, well, then too bad!
how can you deny a big battle that is just silly. if you are going to rules guru someone like that at least give a heads up before something is resolved.
It is like making an ESL kid spell out the card he is calling with meddling mage after a correct pronunciation, that was a messed up magic tournament, kid’s white weenie deck would have owned illusions of grandeur (if he had spellled the card the deck is named after right). that was jacked up. Judge wouldn’t let him change the card he verbally said to donate either, which he was more confident in his spelling. Plus mtg does not print out all of its rules.
see messed up stuff happens in tournaments too.
All I ask is that players (including myself) don’t make combat movements after they declare that their combat movement phase is done, how is that being a rule Nazi?
@Young:
All I ask is that players (including myself) don’t make combat movements after they declare that their combat movement phase is done, how is that being a rule Nazi?
If they haven’t rolled any dice, what’s the big deal? If you’re in a friendly game and your opponent is about to get 5 trns burned in his attack because he doesn’t realize you can scramble, it’s just being sportsmanlike to say "wait are you SURE you are done with combat move, and then coyly point at the scramblable fighter. If they still don’t get it, then it’s time for a rules lesson.
It’s one thing to warn your opponent that they left their undefended transports in range of your attack; I don’t think that’s necessary unless they are really new, and even then, that player will learn to count range of your units. But, if a player just throws away several loaded transports because of ignorance of a rule, I think it’s rather unconscionable to let them do that in all but the most competitive of games.
Players should be taken to task for moving a unit to far or forgetting to move an AA gun or forgetting to repair an airbase, but it seems that 95+% of the time, if a transport situation like the ones above occurs, it’s not because of laziness or forgetfulness, but because of ignorance of the rules. I’ve been playing axis and allies half my life and it’s sometimes disheartening how confused I get it some situations.
@Cow:
how can you deny a big battle that is just silly. if you are going to rules guru someone like that at least give a heads up before something is resolved.
In either case, I think a large battle should be well thought out ahead of time. Something silly like forgetting a walkin, that’s completly different. Hell, I have no problem with players allowing their opponents to revise their CM to take free territories during NCM in their league/tournament games. I just draw the line there. For fun? Sure, it was a free territory, wtf, not like you have any dice for it (or a free transport shot, whatever.) League/Tournament? You forgot it, not my fault your admirals/generals can’t follow orders!
I am very forgiving and always point out obvious oversights.
Maybe that is why I will never play a tournament: might just open my big mouth and help my opponent!
Related to the original question, I’m wondering whether it’s allowed to protect transports with planes only during an amphibious attack and without any sea combat. For example, suppose there’s a German amphibious attack on Novgorod from sea zone 115 by unloading transports alone, is it allowed to fly fighters from Germany into sea zone 115 in order to protect the transports from scrambling?
The rules say that accompanying sea units can move with the transports when moving into an uncontested sea zone. Can air units do the same? It would be counter-intuitive if they couldn’t, because in the above example they definitely could if there were, say, a Russian destroyer in sea zone 115, just because it would be combat.
Herr KaLeun: I am sure you can,precisely so as to prevent such a scramble.
