Huh. I always thought the opposite. Thanks for letting me know.
What Turn to Attack with Japan?
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Attacking the US fleet J1 will not get you any closer to taking and holding San Fransisco. Better to go after Calcutta.
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@Young:
Attacking the US fleet J1 will not get you any closer to taking and holding San Fransisco. Better to go after Calcutta.
Agreed, none of the move above gets to the US fleet in the Hawai zone. Still planning to attack Phillipines on J1
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So many threads about what Germany should do, looks like people don’t have ideas for what’s best to play with Japan…
On another forum, one guy suggested to get straight at Russia’s throat on J1 and more or less ignore everything else. I have my doubts!
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I like round two, or sometimes three, depending on both nearby positioning and Europe.
First round purchase has evolved into a minor on the mainland and two transports. In a long game, Japan absolutely has to have production on the mainland to keep up with China and India. I look to be able to take Phillipines, Malaya (tough, but worth it), Borneo, Kwangtung, and maybe Java the round I attack. I also try to use most, maybe all, of my subs to attack Anzac income and force them to build destroyers and move them the wrong direction.
Can’t bring myself to attack first round. I think about it, but I just don’t see it.
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I like round two, or sometimes three, depending on both nearby positioning and Europe.
First round purchase has evolved into a minor on the mainland and two transports. In a long game, Japan absolutely has to have production on the mainland to keep up with China and India. I look to be able to take Phillipines, Malaya (tough, but worth it), Borneo, Kwangtung, and maybe Java the round I attack. I also try to use most, maybe all, of my subs to attack Anzac income and force them to build destroyers and move them the wrong direction.
Can’t bring myself to attack first round. I think about it, but I just don’t see it.
How do you deal with combined threat of US navy moving to Haiwai, the UK regrouping / building its fleet and Anzac sending fighters over to help the UK?
IS the UK / Anzac taking over the DEI?
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in the most recent game im playing, i moved my entire fleet to z26, save 2 trns, and 1 loaded AC, this way, the us has to choose between portecting hawaii, or the mainland…. or they might not even realizeyou can get to the mainland.
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On another forum, one guy suggested to get straight at Russia’s throat on J1 and more or less ignore everything else. I have my doubts!
Yeah, I agree with you. I don’t think that is a good strategy, at least not for Japan’s well being. If the Axis are playing a game to simply win on the Europe board, and Germany’s attack into Russia is going pretty good, then perhaps a Japanese thrust into Russia would be good. The farther they get, the less IPCs Russia has to defend against the German onslaught. It’s even possible that a Japanese force can threaten Moscow.
However, this would be near suicide for Japan itself. For one thing, all those Russian territories produce very little income for Japan and you would be probably giving up on getting the DEI, Malaya, Philippines and Kwangtung. Those territories nearly double Japan’s income plus include 2 victory cities. Also, the Chinese are eventually going to build up enough strength and with British help will start taking those expensive coastal territories, cutting Japan’s income even further. So Japan will start to make less money than they started with. Finally, USA could quickly build up enough navy to not only smash the Japanese navy but possibly even invade Japan. All this to help Germany’s conquest on the other side of the world. -
On another forum, one guy suggested to get straight at Russia’s throat on J1 and more or less ignore everything else. I have my doubts!
Yeah, I agree with you. I don’t think that is a good strategy, at least not for Japan’s well being. If the Axis are playing a game to simply win on the Europe board, and Germany’s attack into Russia is going pretty good, then perhaps a Japanese thrust into Russia would be good. The farther they get, the less IPCs Russia has to defend against the German onslaught. It’s even possible that a Japanese force can threaten Moscow.
However, this would be near suicide for Japan itself. For one thing, all those Russian territories produce very little income for Japan and you would be probably giving up on getting the DEI, Malaya, Philippines and Kwangtung. Those territories nearly double Japan’s income plus include 2 victory cities. Also, the Chinese are eventually going to build up enough strength and with British help will start taking those expensive coastal territories, cutting Japan’s income even further. So Japan will start to make less money than they started with. Finally, USA could quickly build up enough navy to not only smash the Japanese navy but possibly even invade Japan. All this to help Germany’s conquest on the other side of the world.I never viewed the game as a victory city play, always tried to win total world domination and that’s an entirely different ruleset. I am wondering if those strategies focused on winning one side of the map could result inthe Axis really winning in the long run… If Japan is dealt with one turn after the Europeans Axis manage to capture their victory cities, I can’t see how the Axis can survive in the long run.
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I would try your idea but each time we reach a VC win, both players are wayyy tired and ready to be done. If you can find someone who is willing to play to the bitter end, then I would suggest trying this strategy and seeing if you can then resuscitate the Japanese.
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I would try your idea but each time we reach a VC win, both players are wayyy tired and ready to be done. If you can find someone who is willing to play to the bitter end, then I would suggest trying this strategy and seeing if you can then resuscitate the Japanese.
Generally, we would look at the IPC count and the board to see who would win at that point. We don’t need to fight to the end, we give up when the other side has a sustainable advantage that cannot be turned.
After the scenario where both Germany and Japan go after russia…
Would have US at 70, UK at 30, India in the 25-30s, Anzac in the 20s, China in the 20s (160 total) against:
Japan in the 30s (Japan + Russia soon to be dead)
Germany in the 60s (original + russia less Norway / iron ore)
Italy in the 20s (can’t be that successful if India is strong)110…
I think we would consider at that point that the allies have won…
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How do you deal with combined threat of US navy moving to Haiwai, the UK regrouping / building its fleet and Anzac sending fighters over to help the UK?
IS the UK / Anzac taking over the DEI?
I do my best to cat-and-mouse with the Americans…destroyer blocks work o.k., and can cause them to spread their fleet. The U.K. fleet, even after regrouping, isn’t all that tough to take out, and they don’t often have the cash to buy more ships.
The DEI is usually 3/4, if not entirely, enemy-controlled by the time I spring, but usually with one (at most two) infantry per. Most often there are two Zacks on Java, an empty Borneo, and maybe one each in Celebes and Sumatra. I usually hit the lightly defended ones in my first war round, along with any U.K./ANZAC boats that can support them, and clean up the others next round. U.S. is rarely in a position to support them.
The hardest part is keeping the U.S. out of a position where they can bring their weight to bear. I dodge 'em (and occasionally leave juicy targets for them simply to get them to go after them and be out of position) while trying to secure (most of) China and the South Pacific, choking Anzerk with subs. Try not to go head-to-head until you’re cranking good money, and really not even then if you can help it.
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On your point in bold, the UK India fleet will be:
1 Carrier built turn 1, equiped with 2 planes
1 BB
1 Cruiser
1 Destroyer
1 Destroyer from South Africa
1 French destroyer
Potentially the Egypt Aircraft Carrier and Cruiser and any Turn 2 purchases (if UK takes DEI, they will have money to buy more ships)
Potential to use Anzac planesCombine this with threat from US fleet and I think you would be outnumbered by Turn 3.
How do you deal with combined threat of US navy moving to Haiwai, the UK regrouping / building its fleet and Anzac sending fighters over to help the UK?
IS the UK / Anzac taking over the DEI?
I do my best to cat-and-mouse with the Americans…destroyer blocks work o.k., and can cause them to spread their fleet. The U.K. fleet, even after regrouping, isn’t all that tough to take out, and they don’t often have the cash to buy more ships.
The DEI is usually 3/4, if not entirely, enemy-controlled by the time I spring, but usually with one (at most two) infantry per. Most often there are two Zacks on Java, an empty Borneo, and maybe one each in Celebes and Sumatra. I usually hit the lightly defended ones in my first war round, along with any U.K./ANZAC boats that can support them, and clean up the others next round. U.S. is rarely in a position to support them.
The hardest part is keeping the U.S. out of a position where they can bring their weight to bear. I dodge 'em (and occasionally leave juicy targets for them simply to get them to go after them and be out of position) while trying to secure (most of) China and the South Pacific, choking Anzerk with subs. Try not to go head-to-head until you’re cranking good money, and really not even then if you can help it.
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Oh yeah…but they aren’t combined with the U.S. Fleet by turn 3. It’s conceivable the Brits could meet up with the U.S. by 3, but they wouldn’t be doing it off of India. I don’t usually see that happen, though. U.S. often hangs around Hawaii turn one and two, waiting for its first build to hit the water and then catch up, leaving them starting from Hawaii on their third turn.
The Japs can easily overpower the Calcutta navy by itself, I think, even if they do build a carrier first round (never seen that, not sure I think it’s a good idea, but o.k.). Japs have two fully loaded carriers, even if they leave on to mess with America, plus a cruiser or two, a battleship at least, and a farkton of planes (including a couple of bombers). I’d be happy to see them building nothing but navy, as it means I’m likely winning on the mainland (I usually purchase a minor factory first round).
If I can pull the U.K. boats from the Med and Africa to my side of the board, that makes me pretty happy as well. I probably won’t be winning that game, but Italy better own the damn Med, and hopefully German U-Boats will be raiding off of western Africa. Could probably still knock those out, though, I think.
The only way the Medfica boats could meet the Americans, to get them ALL in one place on round three, would be with the starting American fleet (no builds) in, what, Malaya or something, maybe?
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The UK / US fleets don’t need to meet to be an issue for Japan.
In start of UK Turn 3, the UK fleet I talked about can be assembled in India. It’s available for counterattack on any Japan fleet(s) that would want to grab the DEI. In order for DEI Japanese fleet to survive, it preferably needs a couple of carriers. The deterrent will probably result in Japan being much more prudent about invading the DEI
In the meantime, the US navy is building up in Hawai. This means Japan can’t leave it’s own sea zone too weak either.
3 AC
1 BB
2 Cruis
2 DD
1 Sub
5 FG
1 TacAnother option would be for the Jap navy to attack the UK navy in the india zone. However, on top of the fleet I mentioned, there are the 2 anzac fighters that can be landed on the carrier, making the rest of the RAF available for scramble. To send all this at the bottom of the ocean is possible for Japan, but it will come at a cost (not mentioning that UK could block you if you really bring everything south).
Oh yeah…but they aren’t combined with the U.S. Fleet by turn 3. It’s conceivable the Brits could meet up with the U.S. by 3, but they wouldn’t be doing it off of India. I don’t usually see that happen, though. U.S. often hangs around Hawaii turn one and two, waiting for its first build to hit the water and then catch up, leaving them starting from Hawaii on their third turn.
The Japs can easily overpower the Calcutta navy by itself, I think, even if they do build a carrier first round (never seen that, not sure I think it’s a good idea, but o.k.). Japs have two fully loaded carriers, even if they leave on to mess with America, plus a cruiser or two, a battleship at least, and a farkton of planes (including a couple of bombers). I’d be happy to see them building nothing but navy, as it means I’m likely winning on the mainland (I usually purchase a minor factory first round).
If I can pull the U.K. boats from the Med and Africa to my side of the board, that makes me pretty happy as well. I probably won’t be winning that game, but Italy better own the damn Med, and hopefully German U-Boats will be raiding off of western Africa. Could probably still knock those out, though, I think.
The only way the Medfica boats could meet the Americans, to get them ALL in one place on round three, would be with the starting American fleet (no builds) in, what, Malaya or something, maybe?
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Heh, I didn’t say it would be easy. Just sharing my experience with how it usually goes in our games. Again, Calcutta building a CV first round would tickle me pink, as would U.K. sending the Med fleet east. Sending Anzac fighters to India gives me a similar warm 'n fuzzy.
I think it’s cool that they’ve got it set up to where you’re tempted to strike with Japan round one. It’s just not tempting enough, for me personally.
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Have you already tried this in a game? It depends on tour opponent’s reaction, until then its guessing. I personally do not think it is worth it, mainly because you unleash the US as a war machine and you give them the initiative, not in the last place in the European theater. I also think the UK fleet in the Med is better used against Italy than against Japan.
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I tried it in one game and went after Pearl Harbor on Turn 1. I pursued and destroyed the US Navy, but at ridiculous level of losses (my opponent rolled 9 out of 9 dice spot on during the first round of battle)
So no, I have not tried this again, but obviously thinking about it.
The US gains some tactical flexibility (especially in Europe).
If US focuses solely on Europe, I would think Japan can pull out the victory cities before Germany falls.
If US focuses solely on Japan, I’ve looked at how purchases / moves play out, and it seems like Japan is able to use its air force to maintain naval parity by building carriers (see below)
This below assume that Anzac and UK don’t cause too much trouble. Basically, the Japanese air force is worth 222 IPCs, what use are you getting for it if you don’t attack early?
The numbers below show how the board would look like at the beginning of the US turn. Important to watch is the attack value of the third column (Hawai) against the defense value of the first column (Japan). The second column represents the Japanese fleet that should take care of the UK / India, along with transports built Turn 1 and a ground push.
Turn 2 US Turn
Japan JP Other US Hawai US Cal
AC 2 2 1 2
BB 1 1 1 0
Cruis 0 1 2 0
DD 2 2 2 0
Sub 0 2 1 0
FG 5 2 1 4
Tac 2 2 1 0Value 38 31 23 12
Hits 15 15 11 8Turn 3 US Turn
Japan JP Other US Hawai US Cal
AC 4 2 3 1
BB 1 1 1 0
Cruis 0 1 2 0
DD 2 2 2 0
Sub 0 2 1 5
FG 7 2 5 1
Tac 4 2 1 1Value 56 31 35 17
Hits 23 15 19 9Turn 4 US Turn
Japan JP Other US Hawai US Cal
AC 6 2 4 1
BB 1 1 1 0
Cruis 0 1 2 0
DD 2 2 2 0
Sub 0 2 6 5
FG 9 2 6 1
Tac 6 2 2 1Value 74 31 52 17
Hits 31 15 28 9Turn 5 US Turn
Japan JP Other US Hawai US Cal
AC 7 0 5 1
BB 2 0 1 0
Cruis 1 0 2 0
DD 4 0 2 0
Sub 2 0 11 5
FG 10 0 7 1
Tac 7 0 3 1Value 96 0 69 17
Hits 42 0 37 9 -
It’s interesting to see these old threads (almost 10 years old). Today’s dominant theory is indeed a J1.
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@Omega1759 said in What Turn to Attack with Japan?:
It’s interesting to see these old threads (almost 10 years old). Today’s dominant theory is indeed a J1.
Wow! I was pretty sure I saw a video by Young Grasshopper years ago that argued for a J1. However I see per this thread that Young Grasshopper is actually against it and Omega1759 was the first to propose it. My apologies and I will need to change my article Warfare Principles of Axis and Allies and give due credit to Omega1759.
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I always thought it was cow who originated it. Good to know. As in the real world, things do develop in parallel : )
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