League General Discussion Thread

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

@crockett36 I am missing something in your suggestions. For players who don’t have time to dive in deep to the game and understand the current metas, the OOB version is sufficiently balanced enough to play without any modification at all. The German player will inevitably build too much fleet in the Atlantic or forget that Berlin is the capitol, not Frankfurt. The Russian player will spend their income on tanks, while the American player decides to take the long-march through N Africa instead of launching a successful Normandy invasion.

For more experience players, we need a modification to make the game balanced. Either we can do that with fixed additional units/income, an adjustable bid, or a full-on balanced mod. We have empirical data that a majority prefer the balanced-mods, while a sizeable fraction enjoy OOB plus a bid, and virtually nobody can agree on intermediary house-rules. Out of the 221 matches last year, how many players could find agreeable custom-rules / modified bids? It has been a long time since I have even been offered anything different. A few players prefer low-luck, but I will only accept that against an inferior foe as I need dice to have a chance to beat players like Farmboy or Gamerman.

I am very happy if a subset of players champion a set of house-rules and demonstrate that they are both balanced and enjoyable. If you see something catching on and think a majority would support general adoption as default, let us know. I would suggest that we could have a League-wide vote on adoption of changes if it has been successfully demonstrated by a sizable percentage of League games. I don’t see anything that even raises to a couple percent adoption right now, but don’t let that stop you from advocating for variations in the matches that you play against opponents as you are free to negotiate any rules you want.

[simon33]

@AndrewAAGamer said in League General Discussion Thread:

What are other things people don’t like about OOB???

The air raid rules. Too often these result in no hits but rolling a lot of dice at 1s means a lot of swinginess. BM, where ftrs roll at 2 attacking and defending but bombers and tacs roll at 1 is much better IMO.

Also the cheesy attack on SZ62 J1. I think the setup should be changed to include a sub there. While the attack is still possible, probably not advised.

Also, for your comments on USSR, I think the changes to their NOs in BM are great*, . Why reinvent the wheel?

• • except for the bonus for Japan doing a DOW on USSR. I play A&A because I want to kill. I can accept delay for preparation but I don’t like a game long disincentive to actually play the game which is what this is.

There are other reasons to love G40 over BM. It is normally a faster game, although when BM first came out the opposite was true. It should be obvious that more income with the same starting setup should slow getting a result. Also, I find BM much more scripted in its outcomes whereas G40 is more flexible. I wonder if the objectives in BM should have been negative objectives for the opposite side, at least some of them.

[gamerman01]

@AndrewAAGamer said in League General Discussion Thread:

What are other things people don’t like about OOB???

Well I’m starting to wonder if maybe the bids have mostly fixed it.
I was away from OOB for a long time and when I left, bids were about 20-24.

With bids 20 or lower, as you know the infamous problems were Russia and India too weak, Germany just go south if the odds aren’t good enough on Moscow, fork Egypt/India, and if going India, Japan only has to go get Hawaii or Sydney and game over. Or, Germany go Egypt, take a bunch of Africa, swing back to a Russia that has no chance, for the win.
Russia couldn’t go get African NO’s, every single unit was needed to survive in Moscow. Russia was often suffocated down to a few territories, earning 5 a turn and getting bombed so building nothing. That’s not fun.

So my perspective is the balanced mod arose largely as a result of this repeat over and over again, Allies keep losing, and the thought of a much bigger bid was distasteful at the time.

Now that I’m finally back and kicked the BM4 addiction, I find that the bids (which I play around 40) have pretty much fixed the earlier experiences. Maybe I lost a lot of experience, but my Axis are NOT rolling nearly as easily.

[gamerman01]

@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Russia was often suffocated down to a few territories, earning 5 a turn and getting bombed so building nothing. That’s not fun.

I liked your post a lot, @simon33 , but can’t help but say something about escorts/interceptors.

I think the rule was largely a reaction to Axis bombing of Moscow.
I’ve played a lot of balanced mod, and changing it to 2’s largely killed SBR as a tactic. They also went 14 cost bombers probably partly for the same reason. 2 fixes at the same problem = no problem. And practically no SBR, or the chance to disable a base, which is VERY fun to contemplate.

BM designed for a less unpredictable game, and that’s what it is, like one or two of you just said.

[simon33]

@gamerman01 Some truth to that but I still do a lot of SBR on Moscow. And in a game I am playing now, 8 escorts and 3 bombers just attacked to be intercepted by 11 interceptors.

I got talked out of bombing India but I am starting to wonder if there are scenarios where it is useful for India. Mostly if it is stripped of ftrs I suppose.

[axis-dominion]

interesting discussions. would love to hear more about why andrew and maybe others think bm “radically changed” the game. for me at least, i feel the team behind it did an amazing job of enhancing it in very thoughtful ways that achieved certain goals beyond just trying to balance it, eg, nudging it a bit more toward looking like the history. and when i play bm i very much feel like i’m playing global but with great enhancements that give the allies a real chance without just throwing ever more loads of money at the problem. by the way, i agree very much the bid is not only great for variability/replayability but also an exciting aspect of the game. so i’m glad bm still requires a somewhat substantial bid, but just not too ridiculous imo like 50+ would be.

anyway, for me, besides more balance and a more reasonable bid, i like bm because

1. i never liked the re-looting rules in the original where if you regain your capital and then lose it again, the money again goes to the captor
2. the intercepting rules that simon pointed out, how dumb is it that a bomber and a fighter both fight at a 1?
3. vichy adds some historic realism to the game very nicely, while also adding more opening strategies and variability… it’s just a very fun aspect of the game imo
4. same for the chinese guerillas, gives china a standing chance will also opening up another potential strategy for the allies (via american airstrikes… love this option)
5. LOVE the new marine unit, gives back some much needed love to those capital ships and who doesn’t like cool new units? when has anyone ever complained about having artillery when they came out, or any of the other numerous new units that rolled out over time with new editions?
6. bomber cost at 14, altho i resisted it at first, did away with that stupid utterly ridiculous dark skies that some ppl exploited in the past… so i welcome it, but cost of units is easily negotiable between players and i’ve been experimenting with costs of cruisers and battleships being cheaper, making them great again

anyway i can go on, but all of these additions/enhancements don’t at all make the game feel “radically” different… eg you still have all the basics… G going for Russia or occasionally a SL if brits are careless… Japan going for india and china first, then turning on anz/hawaii… allies building up in 110 or first clearing out the med. all the basic fun strats are there and then some.

[axis-dominion]

also the map is the same, as well as the starting units/positioning (except for a few marines added).

PTV, on the other hand, is definitely a different game, and great to have that as yet another axis&allies variant.

[simon33]

@gamerman01 said in League General Discussion Thread:

I think the rule was largely a reaction to Axis bombing of Moscow.

Further to my reply on this one, I would actually say that I do more bombing of Moscow in BM than in G40. In G40, the first round you can reasonably bomb Moscow is round 4 (round 3 in a G1), and a couple of fighters bought put this back to round 5. And round 6 you might be taking Moscow; obviously not if playing a top opponent but if you are, then you get good damage on Moscow round 5 (maybe), no repairs probably then you can bomb again in round 7.

[simon33]

@AndrewAAGamer said in League General Discussion Thread:

What are other things people don’t like about OOB???

Didn’t include this in my first reply and it applies equally to BM and G40 but I do positively hate that Normandy can be left French by the Axis and nothing the allies can do about it. That stops USA from using the factory there no matter what they do. They have to go on to Paris to get French income.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@axis-dominion said in League General Discussion Thread:

interesting discussions. would love to hear more about why andrew and maybe others think bm “radically changed” the game. for me at least, i feel the team behind it did an amazing job of enhancing it in very thoughtful ways that achieved certain goals beyond just trying to balance it, eg, nudging it a bit more toward looking like the history. and when i play bm i very much feel like i’m playing global but with great enhancements that give the allies a real chance without just throwing ever more loads of money at the problem. by the way, i agree very much the bid is not only great for variability/replayability but also an exciting aspect of the game. so i’m glad bm still requires a somewhat substantial bid, but just not too ridiculous imo like 50+ would be.

anyway, for me, besides more balance and a more reasonable bid, i like bm because

1. i never liked the re-looting rules in the original where if you regain your capital and then lose it again, the money again goes to the captor
2. the intercepting rules that simon pointed out, how dumb is it that a bomber and a fighter both fight at a 1?
3. vichy adds some historic realism to the game very nicely, while also adding more opening strategies and variability… it’s just a very fun aspect of the game imo
4. same for the chinese guerillas, gives china a standing chance will also opening up another potential strategy for the allies (via american airstrikes… love this option)
5. LOVE the new marine unit, gives back some much needed love to those capital ships and who doesn’t like cool new units? when has anyone ever complained about having artillery when they came out, or any of the other numerous new units that rolled out over time with new editions?
6. bomber cost at 14, altho i resisted it at first, did away with that stupid utterly ridiculous dark skies that some ppl exploited in the past… so i welcome it, but cost of units is easily negotiable between players and i’ve been experimenting with costs of cruisers and battleships being cheaper, making them great again

anyway i can go on, but all of these additions/enhancements don’t at all make the game feel “radically” different… eg you still have all the basics… G going for Russia or occasionally a SL if brits are careless… Japan going for india and china first, then turning on anz/hawaii… allies building up in 110 or first clearing out the med. all the basic fun strats are there and then some.

Okay, perhaps your definition of “radically changed” and mine are different. However…

Yes the map is the same - that is good.

In addition to the six rule changes above you mentioned, capturing capitols, interception, Vichy, Chinese guerillas, Marine unit and bomber cost there were a total of 28 National Objectives in OOB. BM4 added, removed or changed a Total of 26 National Objectives. That is an almost 100% difference. That is radically different.

The Victory conditions were changed.

A new unit was added that also changed the way battleships and cruisers work.

When there are THAT many changes I think it is safe to say that is a radically different game. This is not 1 or 2 House Rule revisions.

And due to all these changes, as stated by fans of BM4, the game is played vastly differently than OOB. BM4 is a long term strategy game. In OOB there is the race to win for the Axis, that makes the first 7-8 Turns exciting and tense; then and only then if the Axis fails does it turn into a long term game.

It is a completely different game.

[axis-dominion]

yeah i think we def radically disagree on our definition of radically different. so unless there’s a more objective way to measure whether something is radically different, or the degree of radicality, then we could debate it all day and not get anywhere. i’m curious tho, i bet if we were to take the sum of all the rules in the game and calculate the percent of changes that were made off of that total, we’d see it be a small percentage, not enough to declare it radical, at least not objectively. now weigh in the percentage of map changes (0%) and the percentage of unit changes (only marine and bomber, so also very small) and then finally, weigh in the changes in starting unit positions (none except a few marines added), then you could get to a more objective view of just how different the game really is. Plus you can also account for how different the strategies and tactics are as well, which again i don’t see that they are (as i recall, between top players OOB became a longer economic song and dance as well).

[axis-dominion]

put another way, the axis&allies rule book is fairly long and detailed, and i think if you were to add the bm changes it would amount to what? one or two pages added at the end of it, an appendix for optional rules/gameplay variant?

[axis-dominion]

I think what’s needed most to breathe fresh new life into global (all variants) is that ever illusive overhaul of the tech development. It’s a whole dimension of the game that’s gone MIA for too long.

[Adam514]

Looks like OOB might be played differently now than 10 years ago.

In any case, just play the game you think is the best.

[gamerman01]

@axis-dominion said in League General Discussion Thread:

I think what’s needed most to breathe fresh new life into global (all variants) is that ever illusive overhaul of the tech development. It’s a whole dimension of the game that’s gone MIA for too long.

I tried 4 IPC tokens with @Stucifer
That was definitely interesting.
I won’t forget German long range jets for awhile
And they did cool sprites

(Delay long range air a turn, don’t be ridiculous)

[axis-dominion]

@Adam514 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Looks like OOB might be played differently now than 10 years ago.

In any case, just play the game you think is the best.

well, i would imagine that’d be the case with doubling of the bids

one might even say that has radically changed the game

i kid i kid :)

[Adam514]

@axis-dominion said in League General Discussion Thread:

@Adam514 said in League General Discussion Thread:

Looks like OOB might be played differently now than 10 years ago.

In any case, just play the game you think is the best.

well, i would imagine that’d be the case with doubling of the bids

one might even say that has radically changed the game

i kid i kid :)

Was referring to how Andrew said Axis were on a timer. That was not my experience and I never lost an OOB Axis game.

[gamerman01]

@Adam514
Yeah, @AndrewAAGamer is right, I can tell already after a few games.

Just going from the 20-25 bids we used to have in 2015 to 40-42 now, it changed the game

I played a lot of 0-10 bid (when everyone was), and 10-20, and some low 20’s (which is when you started playing here)
and I only lost 1 as Axis, but several as Allies, so a similar experience to yours.

But you get it up to 40 and you’ve got a game. And it is a much better feel (than bids 0-22). When Russia can actually resist you and make more money, you do not have unlimited time and some of the gravy options the Axis used to always be able to count on are not really there.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

@gamerman01 the era of 20ish bids was a bit crazy. The axis had an obvious advantage at that point. I didn’t even bother going after Moscow as I knew I could bulldozer my way into the Middle East, and have a sufficient German Air Force to prevent Allied invasion in Normandy.

Even the ~50 bid is sufficient for Germany to slowly overwhelm Moscow around turn 15 as long as Japan remains a threat that the United States must divert resources to contain.

We have reached near the theoretical maximum as there are so many nasty things that can be done with a 60+ bid. Andrew won’t give me that much money ever again.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris said in League General Discussion Thread:

We have reached near the theoretical maximum as there are so many nasty things that can be done with a 60+ bid. Andrew won’t give me that much money ever again.

Got that right. :)