I tried doing the math by hand but I’m very bad with statistics, can someone who is good with statistics proof this strategy? Say you have even odds in a fight your thinking of taking, you win ~50% and you lose ~same IPC overall as opponent. Should you take the fight because attacker can choose to stay or flea vs defense doesn’t? If there are 2 scenarios A) the dice of first round go in your favor or B) the dice go against you and you now have sub 50% and bad IPC then couldn’t you just retreat if B happens and push if A happens? The computer calculating expected losses is doing so under the impression that you stay regardless of outcome so it’s the sum of all negative outcomes + sum of all positives. But if you leave when it goes against you you reduce the sum of negative outcomes partially while I believe reducing the sum of all positive outcomes by less. So you can achieve positive trades from equal fights by having the ability to choose if your going for their full stack or not.
1942 SE Adding Italy and China
-
I agree that moving the German bomber would be nice, but Britain needs its North Sea navy to survive since rebuilding it while fighting in Africa and India would be too expensive. Moving the UK destroyer from sz17 to sz6 helps keep the UK navy alive, which I found is really important.
There’s no good territory to put the German bomber where it will survive, but it can’t hit sz7.
If the bomber was moved to Germany, I think giving Russia a bomber and moving the British cruiser in sz13 to sz7 might be required to ensure some of the UK navy survives Germany’s first turn.
FWIW, Russia has more room to adopt an offensive stance since the difference between it and Germany is only 10 IPCs rather than the typical 15-20. If the dice rolls go well, Russia could save a few IPCs and buy a bomber around Round 3-4. I’ll have to try this, but I imagine it would be possible!
-
@SMichael23 I love getting to play offense with Russia.
What if the German bomber started in Libya?Also, I have some more questions. This idea has got me very intrigued.
Do you change the IPC value of Italy? or can they only place 3 units per turn?
Does Italy become a problem for Russia by canopening for Germany in your games?
How many turns does China usually last before they’re gone? -
Great questions - I’m glad you’re intrigued! I prefer house rules that leave the board as-is, so I haven’t played it with any changes to Italy’s IPC count. This means Italy can only place 3 units a turn. I think this lines up historically and prevents Italy from spamming inf against Russia.
In fact, Italy hasn’t become a huge player on the Russian front. In my mod, you can’t move through neutral Turkey (sz16 to sz 17). This means Italy has to go through Ukraine or Persia to directly attack Russia.
Italy can help defend Germany in France, Morocco, and Ukraine, but I’ve found Italy mostly attacks in Africa and the Middle East. As an aside, this makes a US landing in Morroco much more sensible than in the OOB version since hitting North Africa alleviates the pressure on the UK. In general, Africa is just so much more engaged.
China has lasted until turn 3 every time I’ve played because Russia sends help. Russia sends infantry over to protect Sinkiang, and China is guaranteed to place 2 inf in Round 1 & 2. Most of the time, Russia has sent 3-4 inf to Sinkiang Round 1, and China can build in Szechwan. In one KJF game, China lasted almost the entire game.
Without Soviet help, China would fall faster obviously, but Russia needs to support China so Japan can’t open up a second Russian front.
-
Also, I guess I didn’t even think about having the German bomber in Libya.
That might be a good compromise. I’ll have to play with it that way, but it would help Germany retain offensive firepower without putting Britain’s northern navy in too much harm’s way right at the beginning!
-
Yeah the US would for sure have to do a Torch. Does the US player often go for Italy? I would imagine the ipc boost would be pretty nice from capping Rome. My US strategy is generally to dump as many infantry as possible into Finland but I would definitely consider going after Italy first since they are the weakest power.
-
The U.S. is in an interesting position with this mod. Sometimes a KJF strategy makes more sense when China and the UK get good rolls.
Going KGF, though, I typically see the U.S. fleet in sz10 to setup a convoy into France. In our games with this mod, the UK fleet sits in sz8 (the UK drops an empty CA, which the US then supplies with fighters), and the US/UK hit France and N.W. Europe. We use the LH 3.0 setup, so Germany has lost its bomber and doesn’t have the fighter it lost to Italy in Romania.
Operation Torch has made sense in our KGF games if Italy starts putting too much pressure on the IC in S. Africa. In that game, the US landed 4 units in Morocco, which took a lot of the pressure off.
As a side note, this is why I think it’s useful to limit Italy to 3 units of production! With just two transports, the US can “outproduce” Italy, which can be super helpful in balancing the African theater.
-
@SMichael23 I wonder how it would go if Italy focused all its income on building an epic navy- just try to shut the Allies out of the Med entirely. Like you said, that 3 production limit makes it so tough to crank out infantry.
Does the German player ever complain about having to give up the income from converted Italian territories? I know the guy who always plays Germany in my group hates Italy in g1940 and always wishes he had that income as Germany haha.
-
Nice idea. But I’m confused:
In the out of box rules for 1942 Second Edition (new), there is no German bomber in Ukraine, it’s in the Berlin territory. It’s a fighter in Ukraine. Can you please clarify this? Thank you!
-
Nice idea. But I’m confused:
In the out of box rules for 1942 Second Edition (new), there is no German bomber in Ukraine, it’s in the Berlin territory. It’s a fighter in Ukraine. Can you please clarify this? Thank you!
This refers to the tournament rules that Larry Harris once published.
See
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/29339/larry-harris-semi-official-tournament-game-patch -
Thank you!
-
Note: Italy didnt own “Italian East Afrika” in 1942…
-
@Imperious-Leader @SuperbattleshipYamato
Absolutely correct, the Italian position under this revision wouldn’t line up with Italy’s situation in 1942. Maybe it’s better not to have them start with Italian East Africa, but I like the idea that Italy can get up to 10 by taking Egypt on Round 1.
As a side note, the relative weakness of China in both the OOB and the Larry Harris 3.0 versions is pretty ahistorical and has always kinda bugged me. I think this modestly helps make the Chinese position feel more realistic.
Either way, the idea is mainly to ensure Africa and China are fuller theatres of war while also allowing for more KJF optionality.
-
@Imperious-Leader
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you are trying to say that you don’t like these house rules or that you don’t think they are well thought out because they place an Italian infantry in Italian East Africa.Regardless of the historical reality, don’t you think that, if you were playing with these house rules, the game would only become more interesting if you give Italy “Italian East Africa”?
Adding an Italian infantry there only serves to give both sides more interesting options and keeps an entire continent in the game as a theater of war.
We shouldn’t throw out house rules because they aren’t completely historically accurate. Even the OOB setup isn’t completely historically accurate. This mod for 1942 SE isn’t trying to nail everything exactly as it was on a specific date. In fact, a completely historical setup would be incredibly boring as the Allies would win 99% of the time.
@SMichael23 even put in the second line of their post that the aim of this setup is to encourage players to fight over Africa. That is what the Italian infantry in Italian East Africa does.
-
I don’t know if @Imperious-Leader is saying he doesn’t like the rules (at least not yet), only that they’re not historically accurate, which is true.
I would love to hear IL’s thoughts on this setup!
-
@SMichael23 Its not a solution if you magically give Italy this territory. If you want to model a problem, first get the facts straight with some research, then go into balancing it.
Aside from 1 ipc and 1 infantry, just increase Italy +1 and balance out the additional forces for both sides…
China is a road apple and a basket case. Japan needs to get thru that mess asap or they have no chance… If you hold back an already weak Japan in 42.2 you create a KJF scenario in every game.
Add italy fine, leave china alone and move the German air force out of UKR, give a bomber to Russia. Minor tweeks, then playtest
mostly good ideas, i would add axis minor allies with substitutions
Suggested Topics
