@SuperbattleshipYamato hard to argue against any of this really. The IJN was so far gone by this point in the war that there’s not really much they could have done to salvage their situation one way or another. The bit about the allies not having many LSTs in general is something I never knew before though.
Werner Von Braun
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I have always held some fascination with this man. He poses a philosophical question, that while uncomfortable should be addressed. “Is justice more important than advancement?”
Braun was a war criminal, there is no doubt of that. The estimates I have seen is that he was responsible for at least 10k deaths building his rockets. Whether he believed the whole Nazi dogma is not important. He may have thought that killing ‘inferior’ races was a great thing, or if he would have liked to have a beer with Einstein and talk science isn’t really the point. He was a murderer.
That being said, he was also the most scientifically influential of his generation (I would argue multiple generations). Einstein is great, but other than building a bomb he had no practical application for his work. Braun brought the first human made thing to space (albeit for the Nazis), and the first person on the moon. Some of you reading this may be doing it on your phone. Whatever your opinion is on the matter the reason you can do it is because of Von Braun (I am speaking of the satellites that we have in space now would be about 20 years behind if not for this man).
This man ran the rocket program in Germany in his TWENTIES. He was 33 when the war ended, and we snatched him up and made him as American as apple pie. Was that the right thing to do? Should he have been swinging from a rope at Nuremberg at the cost of the rest of us just now getting our first flip phones?
And even if you back not delivering justice to Braun for his war crimes, where do you draw the line? Imagine if Hitler was the one who had this knowledge. Do we as a society say to Hitler “You have been naughty, but we forgive you - now go build us a rocket”. The only difference I see between the two is that of degree. Hitler killed around 50 million, Braun 10k of that. If you equate all human life being equal than the difference between 50 million and 10k is just semantics.
I honestly don’t have an opinion on this. I can see the argument from both sides and both sides are compelling. If I had to choose one I would side on not delivering justice to Braun (he is probably roasting in hell now anyway). The reason I say that is because of his advancements he has probably saved more lives than he took.
Anyhow, food for thought.
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@zooey72 said in Werner Von Braun:
I have always held some fascination with this man. He poses a philosophical question, that while uncomfortable should be addressed. “Is justice more important than advancement?”
Braun was a war criminal, there is no doubt of that. The estimates I have seen is that he was responsible for at least 10k deaths building his rockets. Whether he believed the whole Nazi dogma is not important. He may have thought that killing ‘inferior’ races was a great thing, or if he would have liked to have a beer with Einstein and talk science isn’t really the point. He was a murderer.
That being said, he was also the most scientifically influential of his generation (I would argue multiple generations). Einstein is great, but other than building a bomb he had no practical application for his work. Braun brought the first human made thing to space (albeit for the Nazis), and the first person on the moon. Some of you reading this may be doing it on your phone. Whatever your opinion is on the matter the reason you can do it is because of Von Braun (I am speaking of the satellites that we have in space now would be about 20 years behind if not for this man).
This man ran the rocket program in Germany in his TWENTIES. He was 33 when the war ended, and we snatched him up and made him as American as apple pie. Was that the right thing to do? Should he have been swinging from a rope at Nuremberg at the cost of the rest of us just now getting our first flip phones?
And even if you back not delivering justice to Braun for his war crimes, where do you draw the line? Imagine if Hitler was the one who had this knowledge. Do we as a society say to Hitler “You have been naughty, but we forgive you - now go build us a rocket”. The only difference I see between the two is that of degree. Hitler killed around 50 million, Braun 10k of that. If you equate all human life being equal than the difference between 50 million and 10k is just semantics.
I honestly don’t have an opinion on this. I can see the argument from both sides and both sides are compelling. If I had to choose one I would side on not delivering justice to Braun (he is probably roasting in hell now anyway). The reason I say that is because of his advancements he has probably saved more lives than he took.
Anyhow, food for thought.
What is the definition of a war crime ? So I invented tanks and people got killed. Am I guilty too?
What about carpet bombing ? Is that a war crime ?
Ya I agree on both sides in your post.
Damed if u do or not -
@gen-manstein war itself is a crime. war crimes are for those who think war is a game and actually has rules
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@gen-manstein huh ? w/e
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@zooey72 said in Werner Von Braun:
Braun was a war criminal, there is no doubt of that. The estimates I have seen is that he was responsible for at least 10k deaths building his rockets.
Really? No doubt? How is building rockets a war crime? If so every weapon of war is a war crime by this definition. Knives, clubs, pistols, rifles, tanks, ships of all types, fighters, bombers, artillery - well everything. Oh! And let’s hang everyone from the Manhattan project for their war crimes then while we are at it.
The actual definition of a war crime is… War crimes may be committed by a country’s regular armed forces, such as its army, navy, or air force, or by irregular armed forces, such as guerrillas and insurgents. Soldiers may be punished for war crimes, as may military and political leaders, members of the judiciary, industrialists, and civilians who are enlisted by a belligerent to contravene the Rules of War.
So the test is does the act break the Rules of War. As far as I know there is no Rule of War in regards to building rockets. Indeed, there is no Rule of War of building poison gas. There is a rule against using it. The person who created the poison gas would not be tried for a war crime either. Only the person using it as a weapon or authorizing its use.
Let’s not throw around the the term “War Crime” so blandly.
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@andrewaagamer said in Werner Von Braun:
@zooey72 said in Werner Von Braun:
Braun was a war criminal, there is no doubt of that. The estimates I have seen is that he was responsible for at least 10k deaths building his rockets.
Really? No doubt? How is building rockets a war crime? If so every weapon of war is a war crime by this definition. Knives, clubs, pistols, rifles, tanks, ships of all types, fighters, bombers, artillery - well everything. Oh! And let’s hang everyone from the Manhattan project for their war crimes then while we are at it.
You could try reading what he said before you blew up at him. Zooey’s original post, which you quoted, says: “responsible for at least 10k deaths building his rockets”. The Nazi Germany government used slave labor and concentration camp labor to build their weapons of war. A lot of that slave labor died while working. Some of them died building Von Braun’s rockets.
Paul Grigorieff [http://www.v2rocket.com/start/chapters/mittel.html] puts the lower range of deaths from building the V2 at 25,000. Now, Von Braun didn’t kill them himself. But his work led the German government to invest in factories to build his rockets. And those factories were more hazardous to the workers than the end products were to their enemies.
Being the “not worst person” in Nazi Germany is an awfully low bar to clear. But the man was no saint, either.
-Midnight_Reaper
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@midnight_reaper said in Werner Von Braun:
@andrewaagamer said in Werner Von Braun:
@zooey72 said in Werner Von Braun:
Braun was a war criminal, there is no doubt of that. The estimates I have seen is that he was responsible for at least 10k deaths building his rockets.
Really? No doubt? How is building rockets a war crime? If so every weapon of war is a war crime by this definition. Knives, clubs, pistols, rifles, tanks, ships of all types, fighters, bombers, artillery - well everything. Oh! And let’s hang everyone from the Manhattan project for their war crimes then while we are at it.
You could try reading what he said before you blew up at him. Zooey’s original post, which you quoted, says: “responsible for at least 10k deaths building his rockets”. The Nazi Germany government used slave labor and concentration camp labor to build their weapons of war. A lot of that slave labor died while working. Some of them died building Von Braun’s rockets.
Paul Grigorieff [http://www.v2rocket.com/start/chapters/mittel.html] puts the lower range of deaths from building the V2 at 25,000. Now, Von Braun didn’t kill them himself. But his work led the German government to invest in factories to build his rockets. And those factories were more hazardous to the workers than the end products were to their enemies.
Being the “not worst person” in Nazi Germany is an awfully low bar to clear. But the man was no saint, either.
-Midnight_Reaper
a) I did read his entire post which is why I said How is building rockets a war crime? His statement is that building the rockets and the subsequent deaths they caused is a war crime. I contested that viewpoint.
b) I did not “blow up at him” I disagreed with him and stated a different viewpoint. I realize in this new woke culture offering a different opinion is verboten but then, I am not woke.
c) He did not state your argument that using slave labor was a war crime. His argument is building rockets was a war crime. You are deflecting the original post by shifting to a slave labor argument. Saying that he knew of and perhaps even participated in the related slave labor is a completely different discussion. According to Wikipedia it is estimated MORE slaves died during the rocket program than the rockets actually killed themselves. You might want to check that out. That is, again, a different argument than he stated about building the rockets and if he had stated that the slave labor issue was a war crime I probably would not have commented. I only commented because his original argument is so ludicrous.
d) I never said he was a saint. Nor did I ever say he was not the worst person in Germany. Please do not put words in my mouth. He did not commit a war crime by building rockets and THAT is what the post was about. War Crimes are very serious things. They unfortunately are committed during war time and to delude such a serious charge by trying to say “He built something that killed something” does nothing but reduce the seriousness of War Crimes.
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Entirely on a side note: his first name was “Wernher”, not “Werner”.
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