Oh, I get it now!
So the AI just confused. Makes sense.
WW2 Path to Victory - Rules Discussion
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I was actually referring to land-to-land.
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@trulpen That could be interesting yeah.
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As it is now skirmishes are heavily reduced.
I’m thinking one strategy for G could be, although pretty expensive, to put up an ab in Saratov, Vologda and S Belarus respectively.
Russia would be pretty much jailed in, only affording to hit one area. Of course, G has to be able to complete the feat of containing the commies as first base.
The same goes with Normandie and Holland. Keeping 3 fig in Paris is very strong now. Maybe not bad in that instance though.
Well, the Allies does have some trumps at hand, like a super-strong Russia.
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Great work on this guys! Just seeing the rule set for first time now.
Lots of these ideas were a long time coming. Love the effort!!!
But there is still one MAJOR flaw I hope you can fix…
Liberation of Paris… when recapturing Paris away from axis… it should be the liberating powers OPTION to liberate France, during every purchase units phase.
As things are, despite any of the mods we have ever seen we still have the super gimmicky/gamey issue of not being able really enter Paris for the sake that the allies will be so logistically punished for it with loss of frontline factories and IPCs Etc. Only to have Germany being able to totally ignore defending it, and subsequently take it back denying alll the allied efforts in France to date becuase they can’t use those French territories for production.
A “real” France campaign is still off the table. Instead every battle for France is a jokes on Paris episode.
PLEASE FIX THIS ISSUE ;) from the bottom of my dark heart
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Hell to simply
Just give a button that says “liberate nation” in the politics phase. And any allied owner of Paris can do that for France when it pleases.
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@Gargantua The Allies did delay taking Paris even though they could have earlier in the real war. There are situations where taking Paris back is advisable, and it is useful to the Germans because of the factory and the airbase. Fast units are more expensive to mass just for defense too. If we give the option of liberating France, it would never be liberated and would be kept in US/UK hands.
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Hey Gargantua, I definitely see where you are coming from about France.
Although PTV and BM both remove substantial disincentives to liberating france (e.g., eliminating the repeat-capital-plunder dynamic of G40, adding US NOs for mere presence in Normandy, etc.), it remains the case that France is all-too-frequently seen as a no-go zone for the Allies until after the fate of Western Europe is already decided.
One way to help rectify this problem would be to give France a national objective (for example, +5 for controlling France, Normandy, Southern France), putting more Allied income on the table for a liberated France, than without it.
I am apprehensive about the idea of a “liberate” button for France, both because of the coding challenges it would present, and because it introduces yet another faction-specific dynamic, which we generally try to avoid unless necessary.
I have added the proposal of the French NO to the list of ideas for us to consider in version 5 of the map.
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@regularkid can France use it’s 12 ipc bonus for liberation to repair bases? Perhaps not in the past but might be a nice add considering the potential value of the Paris airbase. Otherwise it’s a potentially long delay for damaged French bases and another disincentive to taking Paris.
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No interest in having IC destroyed in Paris and Normandy when Ger captures ? Then when allies liberate give them 4-6 inf placed in Paris so allies can buy an ic and hold it or
The ic in Paris and Normandy is Destroyed on Ger capture and when allies liberate maybe give Paris a ic and 4-6 inf.
It’s just how far u want to go here in game changesOr looks like a NO of 12 icps if Normandy liberated ? Then give allies another NO for liberating Paris one time in game. But money needs to stay in Atlantic side or France
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@Adam514 said in WW2 Path to Victory - Rules Discussion:
@Gargantua The Allies did delay taking Paris even though they could have earlier in the real war. There are situations where taking Paris back is advisable, and it is useful to the Germans because of the factory and the airbase. Fast units are more expensive to mass just for defense too. If we give the option of liberating France, it would never be liberated and would be kept in US/UK hands.
The irony of this argument is, as is, Paris doesn’t get liberated.
It’s just awkwardly ignored by both parties, save the rather rare situations it’s “advisable”. Which is exactly what I am suggesting we avoid.
And in terms of historical reality, the French government (4th republic) was not actually re-established until AFTER the war In 1946. Prior to that it was simply DeGaulles provisional govt under US/UK protection, which is essentially what I am proposing.
I’m glad we are having a discussion about this issue because it’s been glaring for a decade :)
Maybe the “free men” bonus could be adjusted in a way to make liberating it more common or desired. If people got 10 free inf they might do it. Or maybe after Paris is liberated first time, any French Controlled factories get free infantry or something. Whether they have an income or not.
Or perhaps USA or UK can use French controlled factories.
Or via the Vichy shift, perhaps French territories can be treated like dutch ones, activateable by allies on NCM. If Paris is recaptured, French territories will then revert to whichever allied powers are in those territories. On their non combat turns.
Either way… we ought to try to break up this gimmick
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@Gargantua said in WW2 Path to Victory - Rules Discussion:
@Adam514 said in WW2 Path to Victory - Rules Discussion:
@Gargantua The Allies did delay taking Paris even though they could have earlier in the real war. There are situations where taking Paris back is advisable, and it is useful to the Germans because of the factory and the airbase. Fast units are more expensive to mass just for defense too. If we give the option of liberating France, it would never be liberated and would be kept in US/UK hands.
The irony of this argument is, as is, Paris doesn’t get liberated.
It’s just awkwardly ignored by both parties, save the rather rare situations it’s “advisable”. Which is exactly what I am suggesting we avoid.
And in terms of historical reality, the French government (4th republic) was not actually re-established until AFTER the war In 1946. Prior to that it was simply DeGaulles provisional govt under US/UK protection, which is essentially what I am proposing.
I’m glad we are having a discussion about this issue because it’s been glaring for a decade :)
Maybe the “free men” bonus could be adjusted in a way to make liberating it more common or desired. If people got 10 free inf they might do it. Or maybe after Paris is liberated first time, any French Controlled factories get free infantry or something. Whether they have an income or not.
Or perhaps USA or UK can use French controlled factories.
Or via the Vichy shift, perhaps French territories can be treated like dutch ones, activateable by allies on NCM. If Paris is recaptured, French territories will then revert to whichever allied powers are in those territories. On their non combat turns.
Either way… we ought to try to break up this gimmick
Yes that was my suggestion where make it worth it for allies
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The Allies usually have a very strong situation at the west front as it is. A more favourable liberation of Paris would upset things quite a bit. You would simply need some substantial benifits for the Axis to counter-weigh that change.
Any modification of the original rules should still strive to keep as much of the original as possible. To have a separate liberation-rule for France is not feasible, I think.
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@GEN-MANSTEIN
Yeah, I just struggle so hard with the concept, that for Germany, it’s more often to their benefit to lose Paris lol, and it’s often more advisable for Germany to abandon Paris than it is advisable for the allies to liberate it.
It’s crazy.
Like saving private Ryan, where the captain Miller and Hamill talk
“Captain Hamill:
You got to take Caen so you can take Saint Lo.Captain Miller:
You’ve got to take Saint Lo to take Valognes.Captain Hamill:
Valognes you got Cherbourg.Captain Miller:
Cherbourg you got Paris.Captain Hamill:
Paris you got Berlin.Captain Miller:
And then that big boat home.“Losing Paris needs to be a MAJOR threat to euro axis. Not some calculable advantage, a MAJOR disadvantage to the allies and a big laugh.
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But then you should do the same with Calcutta, Moscow and Rome and so on, no?
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@trulpen not at all.
You don’t see Vichy India or Vichy Russia.
France gets treated differently in all variants of BM. The game presents a geographically problem with two capitals so close., and hence why France is a special case. Not too differently than the Dutch or Mongolia are also special cases.
And because its already a special case scenario, minor adjustments to it arent off base in my mind.
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Might be, might be.
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To further clarify. I’m trying to SOLVE a problem here, not create new ones. I have no interest in any special cases or goofy conditions.
My aim is to make things more seamless and fluid. And actually open up the western front.
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You know if Germany goes mostly all out for Moscow then the allies should be taking Paris. Or having a good chance too. Germany should be weak on one of there fronts east or west.
But then this is g40. -
@GEN-MANSTEIN Germany can’t do everything in PTV.
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@regularkid said in WW2 Path to Victory - Rules Discussion:
One way to help rectify this problem would be to give France a national objective (for example, +5 for controlling France, Normandy, Southern France), putting more Allied income on the table for a liberated France, than without it.
This would do it, except it would need to be just France and one other french territory (or just France), not all three (i think), the allies cant take and hold the 3 territories, and when they can, it’s already futile the war has been won.
It’s gotta be that the french can place 3 infantry a round on two factories in Europe for it to be worth it to the allies. If they cant, it results in factories not being used to their full extent, right on the front.
If the allies control Africa, Normandy and France, the French are earning 13+5 (the proposed french objective) = 18 IPCs, enough to produce on the factories which makes taking France back not such a bad thing for the allies.
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