Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB

[trulpen]

My suggested alternative bid based on the suggestion from @Omega1759:

sub 91
sub 98
fig Scotland
art Hunan
inf Yunnan
fig Moscow
fig Stalingrad
1 IPC UK-EU

[oysteilo]

@trulpen I think the weakness with this bid is you are committed to stacking yunnan. If he does a j2 or even a j3 your bid definately is not the most bang for your bucks as it is difficult to hold yunnan j2 or j3

[trulpen]

True, the Atlantic focus is a lot more flexible, but I like Japan having to make a huge effort. It draws away valuable resources from other areas.

I haven’t evaluated what a likely J2- or J3-situation would look like (perhaps someone wants to help out here?). Spontaneously feels that stack will be immensely strong with a strong foundation of +20 inf, 2 tac and 4-6 fig.

Japan does however have 21 planes at their disposal. It’s terrifying.

I believe a key to this strategy is to be able to take out the Hunan-contingent C1 and then seriously threatening any intrusion of Kweichow and Hunan C2.

[trulpen]

Of course also includes pressure on Kwangsi and FIC.

[trulpen]

Sorry, not FIC, since China can’t go there. Only comes pressure when the brits enter Yunnan. That’s a clear weakness of this strategy.

[trulpen]

It must be hard for Andrew to abstain from commenting. I would find it unbearable. :grin:

[Omega1759]

The key to Allies having a chance in OOB is wear down the Axis air forces and to snip out Japanese land units from exchanges with numerous nations.

While that’s happening, a strong force of UK fighters, US bombers/fighters, and a gradually stronger force of Anzac fighters act as a flexible force. A first pressure point is usually India, followed closely by Moscow, and finally the Middle East.

Our options to reduce Axis air and Japanese ground troops.

Adding infantry to Yunnan increase expected losses (must take territory) from 5 to 9 (4 IPC for 3 IPC). Then a soviet fighter takes this to 19.5 (10 IPC for 10 IPC), and a second Soviet fighter takes this to 36 IPC (16 IPC for 10 IPC). So here by spending 23 IPC you force commitment of Japanese bombers and will likely take 2 Japanese planes with you. This remains an attractive target for the Japanese, you definitely do not want to let these planes escape and get back to Moscow.

Now, what are options to take down the German air force? Ideally, what we would do is to tempt the axis player in attacking both 110/111, and getting lift from two scrambles, hopefully trading 4 allied planes against 3-4 German planes (leaving 8-9 German planes on the map). Note that we need to retain enough air power for Taranto.

In order to create further disruption, take the transport from 98 and land one infantry and on AA gun in Greece. This forces Italy or Germany to attack Greece, otherwise any remaining fighters left on a carrier can let the carrier perish first. Hopefully the remaining fleet in the med + Greece will destroy another 2 German planes, bringing them down to 6-7 planes.

This reducing Axis air force business is critical because this air force is a force multiplier, forcing us to build huge navies and armies to invade the continent.

In other words, in early rounds it’s OK to play Rocky balboa and lose 15 IPC of units for each 10 IPC of Axis air units.

So stepping back on the priorities here.

Sub in 98 is critical for Taranto.
The sub in 91 really helps take out 96, we don’t want Italy to have 2 transports.

We spend 23+12 to date so 41, have 9 IPC to spare.

An extra infantry in Paris is causing 4 IPC additional losses, it’s not bad of a ROI and might encourage the Axis player to send the tactical bomber there to avoid a 1 in 200 chance of losing the battle.

With the 6 IPC that remains, it would either be a sub in 110 (further pressure German R1 attack, potentially save the 106 ships), or a combination of one artillery in the soviet far east (to increase the offensive fear factor of this stack) + 2 IPC in the UK bank, allowing a 3 fighter purchase (very needed after the first round).

[Amon-Sul]

very interesting. kudos for the crew.

[Omega1759]

Should have had my coffee, math above wrong:

Two soviet fighters = 20 IPC
Yunnan infantry = 3 IPC
Two subs 98/91 = 12 IPC
Scotland fighter = 10 IPC
Paris: one infantry =3 IPC
UK Europe: 2 IPC
Total = 50 IPC

[Omega1759]

@trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

It’s definitely interesting with the, as I understand it aim to control the eastern provinces and also being able to help out the chilese with flexible air.

The only backside I can see is that Russia is not at war in the beginning. Japan can easily abstain from DOWing, although in OOB there’s no direct cost to it. But it also goes for the pressure on east Russia. Not sure it’s worth 12 IPC to dissuade that?

On the other hand it’s usually an easy income boost for Japan while denying Russia important income. Most important is to defend Moscow, if possible, and it might be better served with bids for the Atlantic and Med, since that should give UK resources to send up figs for the defense of Moscow from round 4.

The point of the artillery is make the stack a more potent offensive force. That forces Japan to keep a bit more air force in the north. All the sudden this big defensive stack has decent offense potential. As others have mentioned, you can’t actually go on offense until the 3rd Russian turn, but moving back all the stack on R2 (when feasible) can change J2 plans and marginally help elsewhere. You can also do this without the artillery, but the fear factor isn’t the same :).

By bidding two soviet fighters and sending them to Yunnan, it’s very likely going to prevent a J1. The key is whether there’s a way to create another distraction to prevent a J2 while causing sufficient losses. Only the Soviets or Chinese can create this distraction.

[Omega1759]

@trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

Sorry, not FIC, since China can’t go there. Only comes pressure when the brits enter Yunnan. That’s a clear weakness of this strategy.

Potentially reckless strategy, but spices things up:

Add a mech infantry in Burma and attack the 2 Japanese infantry in Siam on UK Pacific 1.

Japan is now in a situation where taking French Indochina cost them 10 IPC even without involving the US. Japan will also abstain from taking Philippines and US Naval and air has plenty of time to bail out to safety.

UK Pacific and Anzac capture an extra 10 IPC between them.

The major downside is that the US cannot attack until turn 4, which is an eternity for the allied side.

If that is the path taken, the European side (both UK and Soviet) need to support India / put pressure elsewhere.

I do not like passively waiting for Japan to take over, but it’s a beast, very hard to take down or even slow down.

[trulpen]

@Omega1759 said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

@trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

It’s definitely interesting with the, as I understand it aim to control the eastern provinces and also being able to help out the chilese with flexible air.

The only backside I can see is that Russia is not at war in the beginning. Japan can easily abstain from DOWing, although in OOB there’s no direct cost to it. But it also goes for the pressure on east Russia. Not sure it’s worth 12 IPC to dissuade that?

On the other hand it’s usually an easy income boost for Japan while denying Russia important income. Most important is to defend Moscow, if possible, and it might be better served with bids for the Atlantic and Med, since that should give UK resources to send up figs for the defense of Moscow from round 4.

The point of the artillery is make the stack a more potent offensive force. That forces Japan to keep a bit more air force in the north. All the sudden this big defensive stack has decent offense potential. As others have mentioned, you can’t actually go on offense until the 3rd Russian turn, but moving back all the stack on R2 (when feasible) can change J2 plans and marginally help elsewhere. You can also do this without the artillery, but the fear factor isn’t the same :).

By bidding two soviet fighters and sending them to Yunnan, it’s very likely going to prevent a J1. The key is whether there’s a way to create another distraction to prevent a J2 while causing sufficient losses. Only the Soviets or Chinese can create this distraction.

The problem is that Japan has a pretty low incentive of obstructing the northern russian troops. The land units are more needed down south anyway. That’s why I believe that those art in the northern provinces are a nice touch, but not really called for.

[trulpen]

@Omega1759 said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

@trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

Sorry, not FIC, since China can’t go there. Only comes pressure when the brits enter Yunnan. That’s a clear weakness of this strategy.

Potentially reckless strategy, but spices things up:

Add a mech infantry in Burma and attack the 2 Japanese infantry in Siam on UK Pacific 1.

Japan is now in a situation where taking French Indochina cost them 10 IPC even without involving the US. Japan will also abstain from taking Philippines and US Naval and air has plenty of time to bail out to safety.

UK Pacific and Anzac capture an extra 10 IPC between them.

The major downside is that the US cannot attack until turn 4, which is an eternity for the allied side.

If that is the path taken, the European side (both UK and Soviet) need to support India / put pressure elsewhere.

I do not like passively waiting for Japan to take over, but it’s a beast, very hard to take down or even slow down.

Hehe, that’s fun, but will not happen here. ;)

[Omega1759]

@trulpen cool! Do we have a final bid then? Can we let gamer work on his opening? :)

[trulpen]

@Omega1759 said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

@trulpen cool! Do we have a final bid then? Can we let gamer work on his opening? :)

The bid will be finalized on Wednesday evening UTC+2.

[AndrewAAGamer]

I have posted my essay on Warfare Principles of Axis & Allies. I hope this helps you to win more games! Except against me of course. :)

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/35286/warfare-principles-of-axis-allies-by-andrewaagamer

[trulpen]

@AndrewAAGamer said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

I have posted my essay on Warfare Principles of Axis & Allies. I hope this helps you to win more games! Except against me of course. :)

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/35286/warfare-principles-of-axis-allies-by-andrewaagamer

A very nice read!

With that said, folks, it’s only about 12 hours left until the bid here is finalized. Don’t hesitate to bring in your valued opinions.

[trulpen]

I can inform you guys that I’ve looked into the situation of the second bid-alternative when it comes to round 2. What I can see it’s impossible to hold it against full force japanese aggression. That means that bid would be more or less wasted.

If noone comes up with something ingenious these couple of hours, it looks like subs and figs for the Atlantic and Med is our best bet.

[surfer]

I support the decision to attack the Germans and Italians, that is my general preference. Just providing some analysis of the other options.
I believe the bid @trulpen is suggesting is

sub 62
sub 91
sub 98
sub 106
sub 110
fig Scotland
fig Malta

with really the fighter in Malta as only debatable point, so here goes.
With the units around UK, there is no sane attack G1 for both SZ110 & SZ111, so you will have an extra fighter from UK to conduct the Taranto raid. You agree that SeaLion is sub-optimal so not really worried about the loss of defensive fighter to the Home Islands. Sea Lion really isn’t on the table anyway since probably half of the Home Fleet is safe. So don’t need the fighter. I like the transport in SZ71 + 1 inf Anglo Sudan to accelerate the takedown of Africa.
The transport is used to activate Persia. The Med transport can now take inf + art to attack Ethiopia with 2 inf in Anglo Sudan + mob inf. Add the Indian Cruiser for kicks.

[trulpen]

Good thoughts!

I also like the tr in z71.

I’ll look at it again, but I’d like to be able to go in on Taranto with as little fleet and as much air as possible. Saving the ac is precious. If saving also the cr in z98 while still pulling off Taranto, UK has splendid prospects in Africa on the long term. Getting 4 figs into z97 is pretty heavy.

I don’t worry too much about the Ethiopians. Actually, I’d rather have them spread out and taking UK-territories, so that Russia can have those precious Axis-areas instead (not sure that’s a viable strategy though, since Russia needs 100 % to the defence of Moscow). :)

This is why I rather leaned towards the fig in Malta than the tr in z71. What say you?