@baron-Münchhausen One of the main reasons why people have not been buying battleships is that cruisers are just better for the price. The fact that they move one more space than any other naval unit is huge. They are much better economically since you get more dice power per IPC spent than you do on a battleship. Yes a battleship can take two hits, but you have to pay to repair. I would much rather have two cruisers and pay a small amount extra than 1 battleship.
Historically, this makes sense. Battleships were on the way out in terms of being the central feature of the modern battlefleet. Carriers were taking over.
I agree with ghr2. This is what’s in the last game. Now Baron I’ve been crunching numbers and looking at game play and it comes down to the Cruiser. I don’t know how many times I’ve crunched numbers in the last year on this. It’s either to strong in game a bit or it’s to weak against destroyers based on cost for the bang. So just like a fig and Inf something has to give even if the 1 piece is a bit weaker. So in last game
BB C14 AD8 AD1 aa
1.28 .16 = 1.44
CR C9 AD7 AD1 aa
1.04 .15 = 1.19
DD C6 AD3 AD1 aa
1.00 .30 = 1.30
So as you see DD is to strong. They shouldn’t be the aa defend killer. So take away DD aa and give to CR but now you need to lower CR AD value so it’s not to strong. Here’s where no matter the numbers u have either the DD or CR gonna be to weak or strong. DD C6 is great in game. Every country benefits. The Cruiser should lose a turret of big guns for the aa defense. So now it’s a bit weaker on ship kills compared to a DD. The CR does gain half of the DD aa shot by going from .15 to .30 AD@2.
So here’s the 2 options that are best I believe.
Option 1
BB C 14 AD8 AD1 aa 2 hits Dam AD6
CR C9 AD6 AD2 aa
DD C6 AD3 only.
Option 2
BB C14 AD9 AD1 aa 2 hits Dam AD6
CR C9 AD6 AD2 aa
DD C6 AD3 only
Option 2 of course is better when BB have to repair 1d6 based on AD@9
Option 1 is kinda being tested now in above pics with Tac/Dive AD@6 first round only AD@4 rest of rounds and still getting AD@1 DF kill.
If u want to be an ass make BB have to stay in port for a turn if being repaired. Lol
@SS-GEN
Cruiser being M3 can be a bit weaker per cost ratio compared to DD or BB.
And I believe making the main AA warship is good.
DD as is now seems cool.
Maybe BB repair cost might be the issue.
To provide more versatility and ease of deployment, I would try something like:
NB repairs BB for 2 IPCs AND allows repair in a given SZ with Island or land TT without NB for twice the cost (4 IPCs).
@baron-Münchhausen said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:
@SS-GEN
Cruiser being M3 can be a bit weaker per cost ratio compared to DD or BB.
And I believe making the main AA warship is good.
DD as is now seems cool.
Maybe BB repair cost might be the issue.
To provide more versatility and ease of deployment, I would try something like:
NB repairs BB for 2 IPCs AND allows repair in a given SZ with Island or land TT without NB for twice the cost (4 IPCs).
A possibility there but no repair without a naval base. That always kills me when Japan can attack a nice US fleet then next turn repair BB AC for no cost out in the open water and then kill all of Anzac Fec navy if u don’t know the repair rule. That’s BS.
I like BB AD@9 and need a naval base for repair.
Game is based on some risk reward. You take the chance to repair at 1 icp or 6 icps. Look at it as more damaged the ship was the higher the cost.
Other option give BB no reduced value when damaged. But that’s a cop out.
After some major test rolling and ave odds were gonna go with
option 1 mentioned above that is being tested now.
BB C14 AD@8 AD@1aa. 2 hits. Dam AD@6 AD@1aa. Repair 1d6.
CR C9 AD@6 AD@2aa
This makes the Cruiser a all round ship you need for air defense.
So in game if nobody knows you roll 1 dice per piece but have chance for a double hit. Lets say if you roll for
a BB and roll is a 2 you get 1 normal hit other sides casualty choice.
Roll for a CR and roll is a 2 you get a normal hit other sides casualty choice &
you get a bonus plane kill from ship aa and now you force the other side to have to
pick a plane also as a casualty. For now still there choice.
Also figs get a DF @2 bonus plane kill too.
So now in naval battles you have all the possible combinations going on.
same thing in land battles where land figs and tacs are doing the same thing.
Yes there is some air superiority going on too in these battles.
So figs AD@5 AD@2 DF So if a fig rolls a 2 or less they get a bonus DF plane kill too and a Normal hit other sides choice but now you force them to have to take a plane
casualty. This has been working out great in game. This way not all planes get bank or saved till the last 2 rounds of combat and planes win the battles. I disagree with this. Planes helped yes won a few small battles but over all just helped in battles.
Only problem is still Ger buying a ton of planes the round right before they attack Moscow. Well I’ve seen this go both ways for Moscow in game. One time more tanks than planes. So Ger has 9 figs and Moscow has 8 figs. In first round Ger got 3 bonus fig
DF kills and Russia on defense roll got 0 DF plane kills. So now next round Ger has 9 figs and Russia 5 figs. Ger got 2 more fig kills and again Russia got 0.
So Russia retreated there last 3 fig planes for future support. Either side can retreat planes after any round of combat.
Other time Ger went with more mechs and art and planes and got Moscow but Russia did take Moscow back but some allies Europe landings got delayed a turn or 2 and a few wrong moves was just enough for Ger to hold Paris with some planes leaving Moscow.
Anyway that’s that.
@SS-GEN
“Don’t forget planes are dog fighting same time as combat.
Figs C8 AD@5 2 or less bonus DF plane kill
Tac/Dive roll a 1 after first round get a bonus DF plane kill too
Stg Bomber rolls a 1 get a bonus DF plane kill too.
May drop this based on there focus is dropping payload first round only so can’t DF on first round like Tac dive”
I see how you play the bonus dogfight.
Cruiser and Fighter are pretty close in cost: 9 vs 8.
Just my two cents,
Keeping the bonus planes kill for Cruiser (2), Battleship (1), Tac and Strat bombers (1).
But what about making Fighter just killing plane if there is any?
With no double hit bonus.
Figs C8 AD@5, 5 or less bonus plane kill if there is any.
All have more bomb shells (turrets for warships) and AA guns than Fighter while Fighter were built first against other planes.
My question is mostly about impact of this idea on your game flow and mechanic playability.
If this can work, then Fighter cost can be drop to 7 IPCs because of higher casualty rate (as they become the Artillery of air vs TcB, being AirTank).
So you want the or saying fig should be
AD@5 and can kill a plane with no bonus ?
Who determines the hit ? I maybe gettin this confused.
Yes I can make Stg bomber also have to wait after first round for DF @1. Makes sense.
Fig can pick between a plane or ground naval piece ?
@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:
So you want the or saying fig should be
AD@5 and can kill a plane with no bonus ?
Who determines the hit ? I maybe gettin this confused.
Yes I can make Stg bomber also have to wait after first round for DF @1. Makes sense.
If Strategic bomber get no DF bonus, I’m all ok with this because it was not their main purpose. Fighter were chasing them, not the other way around,
Yes, Fighter hit at 5 or less AND opponent must pick a plane as casualty, if any available. Of course, if there is none, he choose any unit remaining in combat.
This is the idea. Fighter cannot get a double hit but hit harder on aircraft.
Cruiser and BB remain dual purpose, as they have a lot of hardpoints with turrets for ships or aircrafts. It makes sense they can get a bonus hit on plane.
@baron-Münchhausen
OK. My concern is with fig hitting plane first if available being to strong. This would make air suppority a bit to strong. I get what your saying but that’s a big change. I’ll have to test that.
I don’t believe every fig was just fighting fighters in war. Could see if this works
AD@5 + roll 3 or less get a bonus plane kill.
Got to watch this because I’ve seen normal battles where one side kills more planes than other. The Axis have the advantage in early rounds too. This would make Russia weaker based on Moscow battles. Russia needs those figs to stay in combat rounds longer.
As far as testing or playing more or less right now it works great based on ya u kill more planes but it doesn’t over power it to one side where they controlling air.
@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:
@baron-Münchhausen
OK. My concern is with fig hitting plane first if available being to strong. This would make air suppority a bit to strong. I get what your saying but that’s a big change. I’ll have to test that.I don’t believe every fig was just fighting fighters in war. Could see if this works
AD@5 + roll 3 or less get a bonus plane kill.
Got to watch this because I’ve seen normal battles where one side kills more planes than other. The Axis have the advantage in early rounds too. This would make Russia weaker based on Moscow battles. Russia needs those figs to stay in combat rounds longer.
As far as testing or playing more or less right now it works great based on ya u kill more planes but it doesn’t over power it to one side where they controlling air.
Thanks for sharing your gaming and HR developer experience SS.
Air dominance with such Fighter is a challenge. I see.
I bolded the main topics I want to comment.
My concerns is about the double hit from DF bonus.
From a depictive POV, it seems less adequate to give this double hit to Fighter units. (Warships shoot both naval and air. TacBombers can bomb landing fields, or be part of dogfight, etc.)
What would happen if Fighter becomes cheaper and weaker?
Fighter Cost 6
AD@4 (+ roll 4 or less) you may assign hit on aircraft (owner’s chose aircraft type).
Same cost as Tank (A6 D6 C6, right?) which have better attack and defense factor.
Tactical, in that case: C8 AD@6, @1 or less, get a bonus aircraft hit.
There is two other factors to mitigate the Air dominance:
AAA cost and soaking capacity.
Air retreat, especially for aircraft on defense.
Baron I see where you might be going with this fig AD@5 but no plane bonus kill.
I tested a ground battle and what I saw was when figs had hits the tac bombers were taken due to hitting on 4 after first turn and saving figs is more important and also while this was going on, first round Tacs got there pick hits then mostly rest of rounds as figs where killing the Tacs and not ground while the ground pieces where having there own battle with a tac hit here or there until they were gone. I did this battle.
Attacker
4 Inf
4 Art
4 Tanks
4 Tacs
4 Figs
same for defender.
The attacker won battle mostly based on
attacking figs rolling better the first 2 rounds and defending ground had more misses.
Odds are defender wins battle barely.
1 Art
2 Tanks
3 Figs
I will have to test naval combats because more figs mostly. Oh but the Cruiser !
By taking the Tac/Dive bombers is like what really happened in war
based on figs going after them.
I think that Tac/Dive Bomber should get bonus plane kill @1 after first turn after dropping payload though so balance it a bit more for Dog Fighting.
Edit
Did another battle. Defender won with 1 Art 1 Tank left.
Attacker had 3 figs against 3 Art and 1 Tank for 2 rounds of battle.
With Tacs being the plane casualties early this helps Russia but then can
The Germans afford to lose those Tacs early rounds when they need there planes
to take Moscow but then If Germany goes more fig buys that’s gonna hurt Russia more.
Russia needs those Figs against German ground every round.
This is gonna take some huge testing which ain’t gonna happen soon and I’ll have to test this my self by using all 3 Scenarios with 3 different piece values and record the outcomes.
Moscow I think can defend it self finally with LL and Tankograd builds or at least
when Germany takes Moscow but have not a stack in Moscow where now Russia can counter and take back. It did happen last game but allies took a turn to long to get Paris back so Germany had just enough planes to hold Moscow and Paris.
No allies allowed in Russia in game and we got it now where Russia can counter for Moscow. Still have to see if the battle of Kurst will happen.
Another thing thinking of is now with this the Inf is not that strong against Figs.
I can see the Fig going down to AD@4 because if you have figs in a battle the Inf is taken as the casualty first and by the time Fig attack ground the Inf will be gone and now fig is were I feel it should be. But when we tested this fig AD@4 it was to weak according to the guys play Pacific. But also some said a fig shouldn’t get to kill a BB. BB would get normal hit and ship aa @1. So now that makes it better for ship defense.
@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:
Baron I see where you might be going with this fig AD@5 but no plane bonus kill.
I tested a ground battle and what I saw was when figs had hits the tac bombers were taken due to hitting on 4 after first turn and saving figs is more important and also while this was going on, first round Tacs got there pick hits then mostly rest of rounds as figs where killing the Tacs and not ground while the ground pieces where having there own battle with a tac hit here or there until they were gone. I did this battle.
Attacker
4 Inf
4 Art
4 Tanks
4 Tacs
4 Figs
same for defender.
The attacker won battle mostly based on
attacking figs rolling better the first 2 rounds and defending ground had more misses.
Odds are defender wins battle barely.
1 Art
2 Tanks
3 FigsI will have to test naval combats because more figs mostly. Oh but the Cruiser !
By taking the Tac/Dive bombers is like what really happened in war
based on figs going after them.
I think that Tac/Dive Bomber should get bonus plane kill @1 after first turn after dropping payload though so balance it a bit more for Dog Fighting.
I pretty like the way you are doing the play tests as a proof of concept viability. No need to play for real, but just trying a few plausible combats between ground and air or naval and air units.
According to your depiction of this battle, it seems to put Tacbomber at a disadvantage round after round. I would feel better and find it simpler to give the bonus DF on a 1 roll, since the beginning of round 1.
Maybe, in this case we are talking, TcB need to be lowered to @5 after first round (instead of @4) to keep them efficient against ground units.
@baron-Münchhausen
Ya maybe. I do know the German Tac ace killed 40 tanks just with his guns. But is @5 to strong for rest of countries based on history ?
You meant raise the tac bomber To @5 ?
@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:
Another thing thinking of is now with this the Inf is not that strong against Figs.
I can see the Fig going down to AD@4 because if you have figs in a battle the Inf is taken as the casualty first and by the time Fig attack ground the Inf will be gone and now fig is were I feel it should be. But when we tested this fig AD@4 it was to weak according to the guys play Pacific. But also some said a fig shouldn’t get to kill a BB. BB would get normal hit and ship aa @1. So now that makes it better for ship defense.
Another cue from my long ago playtests is when Carrier have at least the same defense factor than aircraft, then people loose aircraft before carrier.
It is less strange than long battle which finish with Battleship against fighter.
@baron-Münchhausen said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:
@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:
Another thing thinking of is now with this the Inf is not that strong against Figs.
I can see the Fig going down to AD@4 because if you have figs in a battle the Inf is taken as the casualty first and by the time Fig attack ground the Inf will be gone and now fig is were I feel it should be. But when we tested this fig AD@4 it was to weak according to the guys play Pacific. But also some said a fig shouldn’t get to kill a BB. BB would get normal hit and ship aa @1. So now that makes it better for ship defense.Another cue from my long ago playtests is when Carrier have at least the same defense factor than aircraft, then people loose aircraft before carrier.
It is less strange than long battle which finish with Battleship against fighter.
We seen more AC casualties based on plane kills
@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:
@baron-Münchhausen
Ya maybe. I do know the German Tac ace killed 40 tanks just with his guns. But is @5 to strong for rest of countries based on history ?
You meant raise the tac bomber To @5 ?
I’m strictly talking within the framework suggested a few post before, and tried by you. Between Fighter and TacB, if Fg are @5 chasing planes, seems fair to give TcB (are they at same cost?) @5 as a regular roll.
Yes all planes cost 8 icps. Tac @5 when ?
I like the pick target first turn
@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:
Yes all planes cost 8 icps. Tac @5 when ?
I like the pick target first turn
Is it the balance issue, pick target @5 seems high, even if just first round?
