@ksmckay said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@Amon-Sul said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@oysteilo said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@oysteilo said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@Adam514 ahhhh, then I misunderstood. Sorry
But there is no plan for changing the cost of battleships and cruisers. Would that follow the same logic or is this not an issue (given no one really buys)
battleships, cruisers, tacs, tanks and marines need a change. that change would make people buy them often, and it would make the game more interesting, and people wouldn`t just swarming inf/mechs, figs/ACs and des/subs
Nothing wrong with tanks. Solid offensive and defensive stats for their cost, mobility and blitz capability is a strong plus. Plenty of reason to buy tanks.
Cruisers and BB are a different story, almost no reason to get them ever. Marines make them a little more useful but marines are a bit expensive. I think cruisers at 11 and bbs at 18 could make them more interesting. Cant make marines cheaper, but maybe if you bumped up their attack to 3 and cost to 6 that could make them more interesting.
Totally agree with this. Maybe crusiers should be even lower, maybe 10. If marines where at 6 and 3 attack, thats a big deal. (Maybe armor should be at 7…)
@Adam514 said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
Since we are opening the debate to change 1 unit’s cost, other cost changes can be debated.
hmmm. I think I’d rather focus the conversation on this discrete issue: will increasing the cost of bombers to 14 improve balance and gameplay? If there is a general consensus that it will, then we will incorporate it. (Briefly addressing battleships/cruisers, from a historical standpoint i’m ok with new capital shops not being frequently purchased, because WWII did see a decline in their utility… aircraft carries supplanting them as the centerpiece of naval combat).
Also, like others, I am apprehensive about changing other bomber stats like range and attack power. Among other things, doing so would upset opening moves with God-knows-what unintended consequences.
@oysteilo said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
Maybe crusiers should be even lower, maybe 10.
I wouldn’t like that so much. That makes cruisers nearly as good value as a mixed carrier group 4Cru only slightly less than 1ftr 1tac 1cv if they are being attacked and the cruisers have more attack value.
@regularkid said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
Also, like others, I am apprehensive about changing other bomber stats like range and attack power. Among other things, doing so would upset opening moves with God-knows-what unintended consequences.
Alright, let’s go through the potential changes to opening attacks.
SZ111 no scramble 1BB 2sub 1ftr 1tac 1bomb. Now: 99.7% A3 bomb: 99.6%
SZ111 scramble 1BB 2sub 1ftr 1tac 1bomb Now: 95% A3 bomb: 93%
SZ110 no scramble 2sub 3ftr 3tac 1bomb Now: 100% A3 bomb: 100%
SZ110 scramble 2sub 3ftr 3tac 1bomb Now: 92% A3 bomb: 71%
SZ37 1ftr 1cru 2bomb Now: 99.9% A3 bomb: 99.3%
Yunnan 3inf 1art 1ftr 1tac 2bomb Now: 100% A3 bomb: 99.9%
Yunnan 2inf 1art 1ftr 1tac 2bomb Now: 99.8% A3 bomb: 99.6%
Only one to be at all concerned with there, IMHO, is SZ110 w/scramble. Perhaps the change will be positive, or perhaps swing it too much then. Perhaps both.
@simon33 There’s the Japanese opening too.
I included that.
@simon33 Meant J1DOW.
Yeah, did.
@simon33 said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
SZ37 1ftr 1cru 2bomb Now: 99.9% A3 bomb: 99.3%
Or were you thinking of something else?
@ksmckay said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@Amon-Sul said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@oysteilo said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@oysteilo said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@Adam514 ahhhh, then I misunderstood. Sorry
But there is no plan for changing the cost of battleships and cruisers. Would that follow the same logic or is this not an issue (given no one really buys)
battleships, cruisers, tacs, tanks and marines need a change. that change would make people buy them often, and it would make the game more interesting, and people wouldn`t just swarming inf/mechs, figs/ACs and des/subs
Nothing wrong with tanks. Solid offensive and defensive stats for their cost, mobility and blitz capability is a strong plus. Plenty of reason to buy tanks.
Cruisers and BB are a different story, almost no reason to get them ever. Marines make them a little more useful but marines are a bit expensive. I think cruisers at 11 and bbs at 18 could make them more interesting. Cant make marines cheaper, but maybe if you bumped up their attack to 3 and cost to 6 that could make them more interesting.
And who buys lot of tanks ?
I agree 18 for battleships.
As for marines I agree again. Can not be cheaper then 5, but if U make them cost 6 , hm I do not know.
Maybe to give them attack on 3 only on first round, or cost 4 attack 2 only in first round.
@simon33 said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@oysteilo said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
Maybe crusiers should be even lower, maybe 10.
I wouldn’t like that so much. That makes cruisers nearly as good value as a mixed carrier group 4Cru only slightly less than 1ftr 1tac 1cv if they are being attacked and the cruisers have more attack value.
Compare cruisers with destroyers, not with AC and figs. Making cruisers cost 10 would make them (almost) similarly attractive as destroyers.
At least they should cost 11.
@regularkid said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@Adam514 said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
Since we are opening the debate to change 1 unit’s cost, other cost changes can be debated.
hmmm. I think I’d rather focus the conversation on this discrete issue: will increasing the cost of bombers to 14 improve balance and gameplay? If there is a general consensus that it will, then we will incorporate it.
Might be a good idea.
Why not try it out in a series of casual games and then evaluate? All you need is a bunch of happy guinea pigs and happy editing. 🙂
@trulpen said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@regularkid said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@Adam514 said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
Since we are opening the debate to change 1 unit’s cost, other cost changes can be debated.
hmmm. I think I’d rather focus the conversation on this discrete issue: will increasing the cost of bombers to 14 improve balance and gameplay? If there is a general consensus that it will, then we will incorporate it.
Might be a good idea.
Why not try it out in a series of casual games and then evaluate? All you need is a bunch of happy guinea pigs and happy editing. 🙂
I like Ur idea, but still I think that (for SBR) people will still take bombers and not tacs, since bombers have a better range, they can bomb ICs, and they have +2 to the dice roll per bombing. Even at 14 IPC makes them a (lot) better buy than tacs are.
@Amon-Sul said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
people will still take bombers and not tacs, since bombers have a better range, they can bomb ICs, and they have +2 to the dice roll per bombing. Even at 14 IPC makes them a (lot) better buy than tacs are.
Yes, completely agree with that. The difference will only be that 6 sb for 14 would cost the same as 7 sb for 12. It’s a slight hamper on a bomber spam, but strategic bombers will still be great. Perhaps more importantly is that investing in 1 or 2 sb’s takes away 2-4 more IPC from other investments, like a mech or art.
@trulpen said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
@Amon-Sul said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
people will still take bombers and not tacs, since bombers have a better range, they can bomb ICs, and they have +2 to the dice roll per bombing. Even at 14 IPC makes them a (lot) better buy than tacs are.Yes, completely agree with that. The difference will only be that 6 sb for 14 would cost the same as 7 sb for 12. It’s a slight hamper on a bomber spam, but strategic bombers will still be great. Perhaps more importantly is that investing in 1 or 2 sb’s takes away 2-4 more IPC from other investments, like a mech or art.
I agree with that. Can help Russia a bit.
Hey all. An update. I’ve play-tested the proposed rule change in three games so far. Results were promising.
Bombers were still purchased by both sides. In one game, I purchased three bombers with USA to dislodge German fleet from English channel. Was the right move even at the increased cost.
In another game, my opponent purchased several bombers with Germany, but we did not get to the ridiculous bomber spam you sometimes see in vanilla.
One thing I noted was how satisfying it was to shoot down a bomber, given their increased cost :)
I’m still waiting for a game against a known bomb-spammer/pro. I have one person in mind, but am waiting for him to become available. Will keep y’all posted.
In the meantime, playtest the change for yourself. Attached is a saved game file that allows you to test the proposed rule change. Simply load the game, and it will start you at G1 with bombers costing 14. Plz post ur experience! BalanceMod4.tsvg
@regularkid said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
Hey all. An update. I’ve play-tested the proposed rule change in three games so far. Results were promising.
One thing I noted was how satisfying it was to shoot down a bomber, given their increased cost :)
…
heh heh :)
Regarding bombers @14
If the mood squad want the change because bombers are highly useful and have a much higher strategic value compared to fighters and tacs, even given bombers lousy defending value, I would say go for it. It’s no big deal.
Will this change improve game play and balance? No, I don’t think it will. Simple things like bombing axis minor complexes is a more viable strategy than bombing allied minor complexes. Allies will lose on this. In many games the axis do not even attempt to bomb major complexes either because they don’t want to lose bombers. It will certainly also be negative vs the garrison rule in China. Both these elements will benefit the axis more than 1 or 2 less German bombers benefit the Allies.
Overall, most likely this change will tilt the game more in favor of the axis unless some other compensation is given for the allies.
@oysteilo said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
Regarding bombers @14
If the mood squad want the change because bombers are highly useful and have a much higher strategic value compared to fighters and tacs, even given bombers lousy defending value, I would say go for it. It’s no big deal.
Will this change improve game play and balance? No, I don’t think it will. Simple things like bombing axis minor complexes is a more viable strategy than bombing allied minor complexes. Allies will lose on this. In many games the axis do not even attempt to bomb major complexes either because they don’t want to lose bombers. It will certainly also be negative vs the garrison rule in China. Both these elements will benefit the axis more than 1 or 2 less German bombers benefit the Allies.
Overall, most likely this change will tilt the game more in favor of the axis unless some other compensation is given for the allies.
Interesting. And especially people will not buy tac bombers instead of bombers, even if bombers cost 14.
tacs should cost 10.
Can U elaborate about Chinese garrison, what do U mean by that?
I don’t like the bomber as a unit. In earlier versions of A&A the bomber abstracted a combination of the dive bomber, strategic bomber and torpedo bomber. In G40, the dive & torpedo bomber become the “tactical bomber” yet the strategic bomber still attacks at a 4 against ships and land targets. Completely illogical!
@Amon-Sul said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
Can U elaborate about Chinese garrison, what do U mean by that?
He’s referring to the guerrilla fighters
@simon33 said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
I don’t like the bomber as a unit. In earlier versions of A&A the bomber abstracted a combination of the dive bomber, strategic bomber and torpedo bomber. In G40, the dive & torpedo bomber become the “tactical bomber” yet the strategic bomber still attacks at a 4 against ships and land targets. Completely illogical!
@Amon-Sul said in G40 Balance Mod - Feedback Thread:
Can U elaborate about Chinese garrison, what do U mean by that?
He’s referring to the guerrilla fighters
i like or idea of bomber hitting differently on air/sea and land units.
guerilla fighters, that was the NO for China in vanilla when each empty chinese territory controlled by Japan become Chinese since one chinese inf arrose there?
Yeah well I don’t feel that there is any reason that a strategic bomber should roll at a 4 for either land or sea targets. Ahistorical!
If you wanted to make it 1 for land and 2 for sea, I’d be fine with that. The chance of a strat bomber hitting friendly targets in a land battle is obscene. Did it ever happen that such planes were used in this way?
