Why is Taranto raid so popular?

[weddingsinger]

@Aaron_the_Warmonger

It can and maybe should include

1 UK dd from sz 109
1 UK cruiser from sz 91
1 UK carrier and cruiser from sz 98
And either 4 fighters and a tactical or 5 fighters split between Gibraltor and the carrier

My issue with the stack is IF Germany takes S. France then Italy can attack with
1 BB
2 cruisers
1 DD
1 sub
1 bomber
2 fighters

This is not a win for Italy except that it can usually wipe out UK’s fleet and some planes but gets to keep an extra transport in the deal.

[weddingsinger]

@JDOW

I’m inclined to say I disagree with you about the UK ships being more precious.

The UK’s ships are incredibly useful BUT not necessarily required for creating opportunities. Italy’s ships are desperately needed in order for them to expand. Thus, if you’re able to trade the UK’s fleet for Italy’s the net result is a push for UK and Italy, but Italy only makes 10-15 ipcs and stays there. The UK can continue to expand into the middle east or piggy back the U.S. fleet in the Atlantic.

Taranto leaves Italy 1 transport and few warships vs the 92stack leaves Italy 2 transports and most of its fleet.

[JDOW]

@weddingsinger said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

@JDOW

I’m inclined to say I disagree with you about the UK ships being more precious.

The UK’s ships are incredibly useful BUT not necessarily required for creating opportunities. Italy’s ships are desperately needed in order for them to expand. Thus, if you’re able to trade the UK’s fleet for Italy’s the net result is a push for UK and Italy, but Italy only makes 10-15 ipcs and stays there. The UK can continue to expand into the middle east or piggy back the U.S. fleet in the Atlantic.

Taranto leaves Italy 1 transport and few warships vs the 92stack leaves Italy 2 transports and most of its fleet.

I think what you describe is one of the key reasons, why many people struggle with the Allies: Too much focus on the med and middle East and not showing enough dedication to establish a strong position in 110, EARLY!
And as said, Taranto is an ok option but it should certainly not be made at 70% odds, risking to lost and to allow Italy to absorb a hit for free with the BB that repairs automatically.

However, IF someone wants to show dedication to remove any Italian influence in the med, there are more efficient ways to blow the Italian fleet away entirely. Italy can’t do anything in case UK is focusing on crushing the Italian fleet.
Axis might try to prevent this but it would require German support with eg airbases or fighter to equip Italian carriers. Things Germans usually don’t want to do as it distracts from the real and only enemy in the first 6 turns, which is Russia.

However, focusing on the med too much always comes with the price to relieve Germans from pressure on Normandy and Norway which is very good for them.

One key in successful Allied strategy is to establish a position in 110 BEFORE the Germans manage to push the Russians off Bryansk. This is the squeeze, Germans must face: Either pushing Russians back and sending the planes in range of Bry or risk the Allies to establish a beachhead in Normandy or Norway.

So in the end, Taranto or not, Allies need fleet AND Air, AND transports in order to establish a position in 110. If they lose too many ships and planes due to Taranto, the mission is harder.

Additionally: The 92 move requires some experience in the balancing act to not lose Egypt early. Losing Egypt carelessly is a nail in the coffin for the Allies.
So there is certainly a downside and UK needs to be aware of a couple of details. I would go too far to explore them all but there are plenty of nuances in G1, and J1 and UK1 that affect how good or less good Taranto or stacking 92 is.

[JDOW]

Why btw don’t we have a cool name for the “stacking 92 with airbase Gib” UK1 as we have for the attack in 97? :-)

Any suggestions?

[taamvan]

@JDOW

Rock of Gibraltar

[JDOW]

@taamvan good idea but I think “rock of Gibraltar” does not flow well.

How about “Gib defense” or how about: “I played a “Gib 92” in UK1 :-)”

[taamvan]

@JDOW Then how about “I rocked Gibraltar” lol

A defensive stack isn’t as exciting as a battle. The technical terms are Bastion or Fleet-in-Being so maybe we can riff off that…Britty Bastion?

[JDOW]

You are right about an attack vs a defensive move. but “bastion” is great

So we are coming close. I would now prefer “Gib(raltar) Bastion”

[aequitas-et-veritas]

“UK1 92 stack” is what i think could anybody understand what is meant by that.

I did a UK1 92.
Oh ya, i know what you mean…

[simon33]

@Wizard said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

@barnee followup question: why is taranto raid so popular? What are the pros and cons?

Ok, a few points, first one being it’s not that popular any more.

@weddingsinger said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

I’m a believer in a UK scramble out of London on G1, if it will kill 3+ German planes.

Agreed.

@weddingsinger said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

Taranto can include the bomber from London and the fighter from Scotland.

Which gives odds of 82%, 4% draw, 14% loss. That loss is really devastating. Even failing to kill the Italian transport (draw) is bad.

Also, you’re only leaving the SZ91 cruiser and Gibraltar fighter for SZ96, which is 96%. These odds sound good but you need both battles to succeed so really you’re uphill in just over 20% of games, is it worth the risk? Perhaps.

The SZ92 stack can be better because it neutralises the Italian navy which can be finished off later, although it has a lot of risk in the event that Germany takes Southern France G1, especially if a plane is lost in SZ96. This is what @weddingsinger was pointing out.

[Caesar-Seriona]

The point is that Taranto is a do or die move. Because the Italians can’t complete their African campaign without their fleet. Doing Taranto and having it work means that Egypt is basically secured. Hence why it is fails, you weaken your air power and Germany and Italy both reap the benefit of this.

[oysteilo]

I think this is an interesting discussion. Of course JDOW is right when it comes to, to do Taranto or not. I like to do Taranto as I find it difficult to both establish a position in 110 and kill of the Italians. If you are going to do Taranto, scrambling G1 is off the table as you need 3 fighters and all the other usual stuff, unless there is a sub bid or similar

In the official G40 2nd edition you might let the italian sail on their own as the med is not worth as much, but you soon look at +10 for Italy. It is really not good. Then they buy a carrier a destroyer and some subs. It soon becomes a decent fleet with the 3 fighter scramble. In BM3 it is even worse as there is another 3 IPC for Italy as well as -3 for the british (med islands). So if you dont do Taranto and focuses on early 110 presence, how do you typically deal with the growing Italian fleet? The fleet is vulnerable if it leaves 97, but it also does a nice job there to protect 97 from the destructive convoy damage @JDOW

[simon33]

@oysteilo said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

If you are going to do Taranto, scrambling G1 is off the table as you need 3 fighters and all the other usual stuff, unless there is a sub bid or similar

As discussed above, you can scramble 110, you just can’t scramble both 110 and 111.

[oysteilo]

@simon33 said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

@oysteilo said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

If you are going to do Taranto, scrambling G1 is off the table as you need 3 fighters and all the other usual stuff, unless there is a sub bid or similar

As discussed above, you can scramble 110, you just can’t scramble both 110 and 111.

Of course you can! The consequence is 2 fighters for Taranto or just one cruiser and no fighter for 96 or just skip 96 completely

With two fighters for Taranto it is always right to scramble I think

[simon33]

I would call that option ill advised.

When you say 2 fighters, you mean a fighter and a tac? You can always use the fighter on Malta and tac from SZ98. And the bomber from London.

[oysteilo]

If you scramble from London you have 3 fighters, a tac and a bomber remaining in Europe. Fighters are in scotland, gibraltar and malta

I say in order to do Taranto you need 3 fighters, 1 tac, 1 bomber and the ships. The consequence then is to use the cruiser in 91 against the destroyer and transport in 96 or skip Taranto all together. Hence my claim that scrambling 110 means you cant do Taranto

Taranto works best (or even only works) if you also take out 96

Of course you can go for the 2 fighter, 1 tac and 1 bomber option but you are risking a lot by doing so

[simon33]

In the event that I scrambled 3ftrs to SZ110, I would never ever do a 3 fighter mission to SZ97. Use the Gibraltar one for SZ96, with the SZ91 cruiser. 2ftrs to SZ97 is 82% as I noted above. Perhaps a bit dangerous but not completely stupid either.

[JDOW]

@simon33 said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

@Wizard said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

@barnee followup question: why is taranto raid so popular? What are the pros and cons?

Ok, a few points, first one being it’s not that popular any more.

@weddingsinger said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

I’m a believer in a UK scramble out of London on G1, if it will kill 3+ German planes.

Agreed.

@weddingsinger said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

Taranto can include the bomber from London and the fighter from Scotland.

Which gives odds of 82%, 4% draw, 14% loss. That loss is really devastating. Even failing to kill the Italian transport (draw) is bad.

Also, you’re only leaving the SZ91 cruiser and Gibraltar fighter for SZ96, which is 96%. These odds sound good but you need both battles to succeed so really you’re uphill in just over 20% of games, is it worth the risk? Perhaps.

The SZ92 stack can be better because it neutralizes the Italian navy which can be finished off later, although it has a lot of risk in the event that Germany takes Southern France G1, especially if a plane is lost in SZ96. This is what @weddingsinger was pointing out.

Hi Simon,

mostly agreed. One reason why I mostly avoid Taranto recently is the absence of a sub in 98 as a bid for the Allies. I find this sub essential to get the Taranto odds in the (imo required) 90%+ range, next to keeping the attack in 96 always at 95%+ odds.

In a nutshell: I, personally, need the sub in 98 to be comfortable with Taranto.

[JDOW]

@oysteilo said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

I think this is an interesting discussion. Of course JDOW is right when it comes to, to do Taranto or not. I like to do Taranto as I find it difficult to both establish a position in 110 and kill of the Italians. If you are going to do Taranto, scrambling G1 is off the table as you need 3 fighters and all the other usual stuff, unless there is a sub bid or similar

In the official G40 2nd edition you might let the Italian sail on their own as the med is not worth as much, but you soon look at +10 for Italy. It is really not good. Then they buy a carrier a destroyer and some subs. It soon becomes a decent fleet with the 3 fighter scramble. In BM3 it is even worse as there is another 3 IPC for Italy as well as -3 for the British (med islands). So if you don’t do Taranto and focuses on early 110 presence, how do you typically deal with the growing Italian fleet? The fleet is vulnerable if it leaves 97, but it also does a nice job there to protect 97 from the destructive convoy damage @JDOW

Well, you can’t have it all! :-) It is your job as the Allied commander in Chief to get as much of everything with as little as possible. I prefer an early 110 position over convoying the shit out of the Italians early.
In the long run, Italians have 2 choices. They either defend 97 with their teeth but then they do not support the Barbarossa well and don’t do much helping the Germany defending the west. Or they support Barbarossa and allow the Allies to dominate the med sooner or later.
In my games, I usually will dominate the Med at some point. Later as other players do but therefore I apply more pressure from 110 early.

It also depends on how the Germans play. How aggressive against Russia? How defensive in the West. If the Germans play slowly against Russia and start fortifying Western Europe early --> Clear the med first. When they rush vs Russia and keep the West protected thinly, leave the Italians and go 110.

As always, A&A is different from chess as every outcome of every move is different and you basically never find the exact same position twice on the board.

[Aaron_the_Warmonger]

@JDOW lets say the gerrys land a couple planes in Rome, at least threatening a full 3 plane scramble against Taranto, are you saying that anything short of 90% is a no go for the UK? I’m just trying to get an idea for how you play the game!