so by uk 6, they need 7+ fighters in Moscow to stay comfy, and if they can do that, then the Germans must wait till G9 to have a shot due to the whole 12 stack coming in on R7
Most efficient Axis Turn 1 for Sea Lion option
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Regardless of intent to actually do Sea Lion, but just in case UK leaves a solid opening, I’m making sure I have an optimal G1 for it that doesn’t cost me much against the more likely invasion of Russia.
Notes and help are welcome.
So far, I’ve got:
G1 buy, 2 bombers, save 6 ipcs (sub doesn’t help Sea Lion or Barbarossa, extra ipcs on G2 buy can be very useful)
Kill SZs 110 and 111
Land 2 German plans in S. Italy to force as many UK planes South as possible
Keep German artillery within 1 space of the coast (so none go to Yugoslavia)
Germany must get Normandy, not Italy (G1 or G2 - but don’t count on any troops in Normandy getting onto transports G3 if there is a UK ship alive to create a battle zone)Italy must be able to bomb London airfield on I2 so one or both Italian fighters should end up in W. Germany on I1 IF its going to happen.
After that it gets messier, but mostly on G2
Buy transports and possibly 1 destroyer if worried about London fighters scrambling, or a sub if its a UK destroyer that will be a pest. Making sure German Inf still in Eastern Europe and the Italians are in Romania to block Russia; I take the invasion inf mostly from Norway to keep Europe stronger because if Russia invades Finland/Norway, Germany’s transports can easily bring troops to anything on the Baltic or North Sea. But if Russia gets into Romania and Bulgaria, its a PIA to get rid of them quickly.G3 buys for Sea Lion can include ships for Normandy factory to place at end of G3 to help protect transports or even an air base on Normandy or Holland so you can scramble. G3 buy should also include more inf/art for German transports to pick up to hit Poland or Norway on G4.
G4 your transports should end in sz 112 because from there you can hit Gibraltor, Morocco, Norway, Finland, Novgorod, Karaeilia, Poland, and the Baltic States. Maybe all at once.
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Without Carrier, the Germans TT are very weakly defended. You may have to sacrifice the BB in order to prevent a scramble (14 planes and subs + BB). Then you are REALLY weak on the defense.
Would be nice to clip the SZ 106 pair as well–even 2 units make a big difference.
Without any TTs bought, you may be up against your 10 unit limit during G2, maybe not. To fill the max number of transports, we are pulling off most of the Russian-bound troops and placing them west is a big tell. Dave brings armor, not artillery–armor has a slight edge (because infantry die and so the combo is lost, mostly its the planes that punish UK). His arty stays to form a credible defense against how strong Russia will be if you don’t attack them for 4 turns.
Dont know how 2 german planes changes much except that Italy keeps 1, for certain. OOB, it doesnt deter a Taranto anyway, it just punishes them for doing Taranto wrong (not bringing the Carrier to soak hits). Plus, we have to take away that fighter from the 110/111 battle.
Bombing the airfield sounds good in principle, but what scramble are we preventing? UK wont protect the water–it will protect the land and this keeps all his units bunched up on London. If he doesn’t do taranto, he has 2-3 extra fighters at this point.
I dont attack Normandy or Southern France G1 because of both increases the chance of blowing the Paris battle.
My approach is the opposite, on G1 i buy at least DD, and 2 infantry (plus 1 TT and more ground troops on occasion) because I’m playing for the long game (keep allies off SZ 125, avoid the russian subs ambushing my cruiser, avoid the depletion of the infantry bound for russia by replacing them starting on turn 1 and stocking Finland with my counterattack force for when the Allies go for Norway)
GLHF Wedding
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If you are weak on Germany navy, Italy bombing London air field prevents them from being able to scramble into the seazone to challenge the Sea Lion landing which means Germany doesn’t have to spare any planes for the seazone (if, for example, no carrier G1 so you only have a cruiser).
As for defending those transports, you can accomplish that on G3’s buy… Normandy can produce 3 ships to help the transports, and/or add an airfield there to scramble into the seazone if the U.S./UK are in a position to threaten.
German fighter/tactical to S. Italy costs you nothing on UK naval attacks since the planes in Poland and Hungary can’t reach that combat anyway but both could hit Yugoslavia, land in S. Italy on G1 to force UK to play Taranto correctly, which is good enough for us since their planes can’t make it back to London before G3. Those German planes can make it back easily to participate in G3 London, though.
10 unit limit isn’t an issue since your G2 buy is all about transports. You can fill them with the 7 inf from Norway/Finland (move into place G2), 2 from Denmark, and if you ONLY hit Paris on G1, you may have another to spare there, otherwise pull 1 back from Slovakia/Hungary where you move the 11 inf and 5 artillery that aren’t attacking Paris. If you do Sea Lion, the 5 art, 5 tanks from Paris move to Germany.
So you’re still showing Russia a Barbarossa at end of G1 (7 inf in Finland, 14 inf in Slovakia with 5 art). You end with 74+ ipcs for
The goal is that nothing you do actually hinders your ability to attack Russia. Only that all the pieces are in place for Sea Lion instead, if it becomes obvious to do. Looking at the way I’m talking about, it does force your hand to hit Eastern Poland in force on G2 and remove Baltic States as an option.
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Without any tacticals to help, you’d be relying on luck to make the bombing successful.
The tactical should go to France to ensure victory. Its an inferior scrambler. And I agree, the UK doing Taranto every game makes them more vulnerable to your plan.
I like that you are leaving both options open, but not signaling your attack. The UK only has to think complacently for 1-2 turns before his goose is cooked. Good stuff.
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I reckon a bomber buy G1 is useful for keeping the UK honest and also for bombing Moscow but I wouldn’t go so far as to buy a CV unless it’s to move into the Med and/or stop a UK scramble G1. Of course, the CV buy is great for Sea Lion.
In answer to the OP question, the most efficient buy is CV+2TT for Sea Lion. But that commits too much to what is likely to be a sub-optimal Axis plan.
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Well if you do carrier 2 transport or 2 bombers and a sub or Destroyer sub carrier is a great opener. The plan to build your fleet and have 7 to 10 transports. You can drop off the first load on scotland and the second hit london with everything. OR if you think your sealion will fail this gives you the option to do two things. Hit gibralter, clear the med for italy and quickly sack egypt OR take that fleet to sz 127 and crush leningrad for those extra 5 ipc’s.
I like to play with options and it definitely gives you the most. 2 bombers and 1 sub gives you the most flexibility however since you can use those bombers anywhere whereas ships can only do one thing.
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@Mursilis said in Most efficient Axis Turn 1 for Sea Lion option:
Well if you do carrier 2 transport or 2 bombers and a sub or Destroyer sub carrier is a great opener. The plan to build your fleet and have 7 to 10 transports. You can drop off the first load on scotland and the second hit london with everything. OR if you think your sealion will fail this gives you the option to do two things. Hit gibralter, clear the med for italy and quickly sack egypt OR take that fleet to sz 127 and crush leningrad for those extra 5 ipc’s.
I like to play with options and it definitely gives you the most. 2 bombers and 1 sub gives you the most flexibility however since you can use those bombers anywhere whereas ships can only do one thing.
Well here the bit is to not commit to Sea Lion at all on G1 but to make sure you are able to, if UK doesn’t defend London properly.
For a strong Italy play I’ve done both a carrier on G1 and take S. France to drop ships there, too, since Italy’s remaining ships often end up there on I1, so G2’s buy of ships help support them.
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I used this “Sea Lion Play Option Pass” Strategy on saturday, and it worked great.
G1 1 Strat Bomber, 1 DD save $10
Destroyed 110, 111, 106
UK 1 1 DD 1 Armor (4 Infantry on UK)
Declined Taranto
G2 ($78) 10 Transports, 1 DD
Bomb damage 18. German Tac disables Air Base. Take Normandy
UK 2 Declined to repair
Sea Lion Successful with 2 arty 3 armor 2-3 Inf left.Japan destroyed UK East on Turn 3 or 4. Using Wedding’s plan, I’d recommend also that after you drop the first wave, you have another wave of 11 Infantry and assorted junk ready to drop on G4 in case you get diced. If UK does a really conservative build, this may not work in 1 round. If I’d had to drop a second round, I would have lost alot more ground to russia and USA. And, once you have the UK under control, its still minimal money (Germany = 52-54). repair and consistently build 3 infantry each turn to avoid a retake.
It is easy to forget that while this strategy takes UK out of the game, the other allies get pretty tough–several turns of Russia > 50, USA @ 80, ANZAC > 30. I was also pretty lucky that the UK navy all died and overall my luck was solid in the early game.
Russia took Scandinavia. Of the 11 Transports, 3 died taking Malta and trying to take Brazil. 4 lived in the med and 4 up north. Attacked the first US crossing fleet and secured bonuses with Italy. Later in the game, the USA returned in force and W Ger, UK, Rome were all vulnerable. I spent tons of money on infantry this game, a factory in Romania. Mechs saved me when I needed to stock S. Italy with forces–in the future I’d walk more slower infantry that direction as there is a recurring theme of Germany needing to cover/help Italy survive.
We used Mark Movel’s Victory Conditions and the Davemod v3.0, both of these led to a really competitive, vibrant game. Weddingsinger’s Play Option is solid, has a good chance of taking UK in 1-2 rounds of attacks–the harder part is winning the overall game in 10 turns without the income from Russia and with the other 3 allies at max power.
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Interesting play.
My thing these days is being prepared for Sea Lion, but if UK is conservative, or gets a lot of breaks on the dice on G1 I can skip it without having committed resources though reading yours I realize I missed a VERY necessary destroyer purchase G3 to make certain Russia’s sub can’t be a PIA on G4 or G5.
Note that one reason I make the moves I do when I do end up doing Sea Lion is so that Russia can invade Finland/Norway and anything on the coast of the Baltic can be retaken G5. Germany/Italy move to Romania to block Russia there so they stay up North where all the German transports can hit all at once from sz112. So Russia can earn some extra, but Germany can hopefully wipe out some of their forward units rather than swinging down to the Med.
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Did he really decline to repair the factory in London or just the airbase? Was it a scramble or not g1?
No repair seems a bit of a blunder. Not surprised you won without UK getting into your planes.
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@simon33 At that point, he saw I had him. The repair of 13$ would have been 5 more infantry, which I could have taken.
I lost more of my planes (all the tacs) demolishing the first US crossing force. That was a solid trade, but later in the game I had to build 2 inf 1 fighter on Romania/UK because I was just so short of planes.
The takeaway is that if you’re lucky during the opener, and your opponent doesn’t build 6+ Infantry, this will usually work in 1 wave, and for certain in 2 waves. However, if you lose the 1st wave, or any planes, the game overall will be harder to win than a traditional chase after Russia. The UK sending the fighters to taranto makes it quite a bit weaker–I think he kept 3 fighters home. That meant Italy got to fight off most of the UK remnants later in the game.
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@simon33 no scramble, I lost 3 subs during the open, maybe 1 tac.
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I’m a very big fan of 1 destroyer, 1 fighter, 1 bomber. I don’t think I’d want to do what taamvan described and save 10 IPCs.
Most games right now that’s my G1 purchase because it’s useful and helps to keep the UK honest.I’d rather have the fighter already. Who knows, UK might screw up in the med. (or dice screws them) and you are better off landing that extra fighter on the Italian stack at Alexandria.
2 planes are useful for Sea Lion or Barbarossa. The destroyer can only be used against the Russian sub. But a destroyer is still useful for Sea Lion when combined with the cruiser (assuming a wounded Bismark did not make it back to SZ 112 from SZ 111).
If the air base is also successfully bombed on G2 (turn transports are purchased), than it’s probably that the UK doesn’t pay the minimal off. If they do, you might have to Italy try again :) Even still, if going Sea Lion, you did buy 2 planes, so you might afford enough planes in SZ 110 on G3 to prevent a scramble.
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His question was, what’s the best buy for G1 regardless of actual intend to do Sea Lion, while not costing too much against the more likely invasion of Russia.
I don’t think the CV and 2 trans. are the best that won’t cost too much against a more likely Barbarossa.
I’ve heard people debating 2 bombers/1 sub…ect. Myself I think 1 destroyer / 1 fighter / 1 bomber. Anyways, they all have similar pros/cons.
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@Ichabod said in Most efficient Axis Turn 1 for Sea Lion option:
His question was, what’s the best buy for G1 regardless of actual intend to do Sea Lion, while not costing too much against the more likely invasion of Russia.
I don’t think the CV and 2 trans. are the best that won’t cost too much against a more likely Barbarossa.
I’ve heard people debating 2 bombers/1 sub…ect. Myself I think 1 destroyer / 1 fighter / 1 bomber. Anyways, they all have similar pros/cons.
Good point. So I’m a bit confused how the question differs from “what’s the most optimal buy G1?”. Throwing in a bomber G1 is always nice because it’s useful in both options. I like the destroyer too but I don’t really like the fighter much. Saving 10IPCs is an option but I think putting down a couple of artillery for the Barbarossa is better.
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@simon33 Yeah, the fighter seems unnecessary. I like bombers, and a destroyer is useful, but there are scenarios where you just flat out ignore the Russian subs, so that’s why I had gone 2 bombers, save 6… if you want the destroyer you can buy it G2.
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Why do you guys think a fighter isn’t very useful?
Could lose one G1 attacking UK fleet and it’s replaced already.
It’s an extra dice rolled in Sea Lion.
It can land on Alexandria to reinforce the Italian stack if Cairo somehow becomes an option.
I think purchasing the destroyer, while not required (can be bought G2) does signal that you would actually go through with Sea Lion. Might make UK respect the purchases.
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@Ichabod I just like the bomber better… hitting the factory, longer reach. Still have planes available for Alexandria.
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my favorites (not only for sea lion)
- 1 carrier 2 transport
- 1 carrier 1 transport 1 sub
- 1 carrier 1 sub 1 destroyer
- 3 fighters @Karl7
- 2 bombers 1 sub
- 1 fighter, 1 bomber 1 destroyer (very efficient against G40 2nd ed high allied bids)
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The most effective options are:
1 Carrier 2 transports
1 Bomber, 1 Destroyer, 1 Fighter.The problem with the carrier and transports is that UK KNOWS that you are going to do a sealion. The other build can be used either way. However with the bomber build you need to take yugo, france, and normandy because you need 70 ipc’s to build 10 transports for turn 2. You have to send in 1 or 2 fighters to escort for your bombing run. You also need to send in not only bombers but your Tacts to bomb the airbase. If the UK is stacking fighters, and there are some destroyers left they could knock your fleet out before you unload.
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