Bombers Balance

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

I’ve been playing all sorts of A&A games over the year and I remember the days of US spending all its money to try to get heavy bombers and then rolling 3 dice at a time to do direct IPC damage to Germany.

But looking at 2nd Edition Global rules I’m tempted to think strategic bombing is a little overpowered (although both sides can do it so it’s not really an Axis vs. Allies balance issue as a SBR vs other strategies issue)

We have house ruled just the other day to have strategics only add +1 to rolls (we also don’t play with tech) and intercepting fighters roll at 2. Just wondering what other people think about the strategic numbers in the 2nd Edition Rules and if when you play 2nd edition OOB your player group is satisfied or not with the OOB situation.

[weddingsinger]

I can’t say I agree that they’re overpowered.  I prefer to think of it instead as forcing you (the defender) to do something about it.

Defending with both fighters and AA gives you a nice chance to take down a bomber each time he comes in, costing him as much as he costs you, hopefully.  But if you don’t keep fighters on hand, you’re probably toast.

Jumping from the fighters having a 16% chance of hitting to a 33% chance seems too much of a correction.  If you really love the idea, perhaps instead if you scramble 3 fighters, one hits at 2?  Something that nudges the odds rather than dramatically shifts them.

[Witt]

I do think they are overpowered fir the price and their various abilities . I would also have liked to have seen defending Fts hit on a two. I think one D6 is sufficient damage too.
SBR can easily soften up Russia , enabling its fast Ground units to take Moscow far too easily.

[AxisAndAllies1940]

I think strategic bombers are overpowered, and they can seriously tip the game in two scenarios:

If the US can get 7-odd strategic bombers in the Pacific, they can cripple the IJN, which is very hard for Japan to replace. Then, the US can throw down some subs, and there goes Japan’s income.

Second, if Germany can get 4 or 5 strategic bombers on the Russian front, they can hit the MIC in Moscow ahead of the advancing German troops. This will sap valuable IPCs from the Soviet income, and during the final assault on Moscow, will be useful on attack.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

The balance mod corrects for this imbalance by allowing fighters to scramble at a 2.  This rule change makes it much easier for Moscow to withstand additional turns of German assault.  It clearly works in the Allies advantage: Germany has trouble maintaining enough fighters in Western Europe to make much of a difference if those factories come under attack.  Meanwhile the UK usually has a nice stack of planes siting in Moscow by round 5 or 6, sufficient to discourage further bombing.

[simon33]

ABH forgot to mention that escorting fighters also roll a 2, but not bombers or tacs. In this way it is still fair on the attacker: if you have one less escorting fighter than the defender has and 3 attacking bombers, you still are odds on to keep the interceptors on the ground.

It is only when there is a ridiculous number of interceptors that strategic bombing becomes unattractive, which never happens for Calcutta but does happen sometimes for Moscow.

Just as importantly such a rule change is more fair and fun. The 2nd ed rules result in the air battle usually being a miss to both sides which is pretty depressing for the defenders particularly and no real fun. I think it is particularly ridiculous that a 3 bomber 1 fighter attack vs 6 defending interceptors result in enough damage to the factory and interceptors to still be pretty positive for the attacker, for example.

I suppose if you had 12 sided dice you could roll at a 3 if you really wanted but I think such a change would go back to similar limitations to the OOB rules.

These changes really help the allies because the axis get most of the benefit from strategic bombing.

I actually think that strat bombers should only attack on a 2, not a 4, with no significant price drop. You might get a few more people buying tacs then.

@ShadowHAwk:

Actualy once you get 5 fighters you already are at an advantage, if he sends in more then 4 bombers use the AA guns decent odds that you shoot down a plane and 4 bombers already do maximum damage.

You’re ignoring the possibility of escorting fighters which AA Guns don’t shoot at.

@ShadowHAwk:

IF you want to change strat bombing why not make the bombers roll a D8 or D10.

I think the +2 was a great innovation in Global because you do at least 3 damage. Far too much variance in having a d10 for damage IMO.

[General 6 Stars]

@simon33:

ABH forgot to mention that escorting fighters also roll a 2, but not bombers or tacs. In this way it is still fair on the attacker: if you have one less escorting fighter than the defender has and 3 attacking bombers, you still are odds on to keep the interceptors on the ground.

It is only when there is a ridiculous number of interceptors that strategic bombing becomes unattractive, which never happens for Calcutta but does happen sometimes for Moscow.

Just as importantly such a rule change is more fair and fun. The 2nd ed rules result in the air battle usually being a miss to both sides which is pretty depressing for the defenders particularly and no real fun. I think it is particularly ridiculous that a 3 bomber 1 fighter attack vs 6 defending interceptors result in enough damage to the factory and interceptors to still be pretty positive for the attacker, for example.

This is due to the D6 % hits are to high.

I suppose if you had 12 sided dice you could roll at a 3 if you really wanted but I think such a change would go back to similar limitations to the OOB rules.

These changes really help the allies because the axis get most of the benefit from strategic bombing.

I actually think that strat bombers should only attack on a 2, not a 4, with no significant price drop. You might get a few more people buying tacs then.

In this game you will never get more Tacs unless you make them get First strike or pick a target.

@ShadowHAwk:

Actualy once you get 5 fighters you already are at an advantage, if he sends in more then 4 bombers use the AA guns decent odds that you shoot down a plane and 4 bombers already do maximum damage.

You’re ignoring the possibility of escorting fighters which AA Guns don’t shoot at.

@ShadowHAwk:

IF you want to change strat bombing why not make the bombers roll a D8 or D10.

I think the +2 was a great innovation in Global because you do at least 3 damage. Far too much variance in having a d10 for damage IMO.

But this benefits the Axis more as you stated with the +2.
D6 +2 = 5 ave dam
D8 = 4 ave dam plus you should have more risk reward.

I do use d8 and d10 for SBR in my game. It depends on a lot a factors as far as changing things around.

But for the d6 games you dont have much room for changes. D6 % hits are to high. But you could try this as Simon stated I agree Stg. B are way to high in attack value. They werent that accurate in the war but this game doesnt have much room for history and also it will affect game balance.
Maybe try
Stg. Bombers Attack    2d6s @1 each round of combat.
Figs Dog fight @2 both interceptors and escorts.
Stg. Bombs DF @1
Tacs DF @1
SBR D6 dam

I also would give Tac a pick target hit on A D with a return shot.

Also remember that you can play around a bit with this.
but most G40OOB players will not go for the changes.

I also know that the G40 is played with bids. So from what Ive read over the years allies are any where from 20 - 100 bid to weak and this is based on players skill. Russia should at least get 2 more figs at start of game. But thats just me.

[General 6 Stars]

Doesnt really say for dog fight for D8 D10.

The reason for the d8 d10 for SBR is so you dont need 5 bombers to do max damage. Besides until u change anything the Stg Bomber needs to be reduced in attack value.
Dog Fight
Figs d6@2  33.4 %
St B d6@1  16.7 %

Figs d8@3  37.5 %
St B d8@1  12.5 %

Figs d10@3  30 %
St B d10@1  10 %

Best would be d10.
D8 @3 high.

But if your looking for a good Moscow interceptor defense then this maybe the way to go. D8@3 but then It may help Berlin and London too. Until people play test it out suggestions mean nothing.

Why all of a sudden people want to change some rules in the Genetic/fantasy  G40 ooob game ?

[simon33]

@SS:

@simon33:

Just as importantly such a rule change is more fair and fun. The 2nd ed rules result in the air battle usually being a miss to both sides which is pretty depressing for the defenders particularly and no real fun. I think it is particularly ridiculous that a 3 bomber 1 fighter attack vs 6 defending interceptors result in enough damage to the factory and interceptors to still be pretty positive for the attacker, for example.

This is due to the D6 % hits are to high.

You think the % hits from the air battle is too high? I strongly disagree.

[General 6 Stars]

@simon33:

@SS:

@simon33:

Just as importantly such a rule change is more fair and fun. The 2nd ed rules result in the air battle usually being a miss to both sides which is pretty depressing for the defenders particularly and no real fun. I think it is particularly ridiculous that a 3 bomber 1 fighter attack vs 6 defending interceptors result in enough damage to the factory and interceptors to still be pretty positive for the attacker, for example.

This is due to the D6 % hits are to high.

You think the % hits from the air battle is too high? I strongly disagree.

I based my answer on using the D6 system which
it is to high. Yes more hits with D6 but not accurate valued pieces is what I meant by answer.

[simon33]

You mean in the sense that they didn’t lose 16.6% of bombers on a raid? Sometimes they lost more (Schweinfurt), although that was unusual.

Perhaps you can think of it as more than one raid to get the damage. That has problems with no damage being done if a plane is shot down of course. Anyway, my point was more to what works as a game.

BTW, d10 damage is the same average damage as d6+2 but just more variance, which is why I said that in my initial comment.

[General 6 Stars]

@simon33:

You mean in the sense that they didn’t lose 16.6% of bombers on a raid? Sometimes they lost more (Schweinfurt), although that was unusual.

Perhaps you can think of it as more than one raid to get the damage. That has problems with no damage being done if a plane is shot down of course. Anyway, my point was more to what works as a game.

BTW, d10 damage is the same average damage as d6+2 but just more variance, which is why I said that in my initial comment.

Yes I know. I like the more risk reward. As I stated also depends on game balance.

[General 6 Stars]

That I know but just try giving Stg Bombers a d8@1 and figs a d8@3 for dog fighting only.