I edited in my last post that there is one round of dogfighting so the AAA plane hits may have to go to 2.
AAA Should Be Permitted to Attack
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Yes.
Also, I’m curious, were you or are you in the military?
No military service for me, unless you count a year in the reserves 20 years ago, no deployment lol. But I work with a guy that was artillery for 10+ years, as per him. Unless its a built in like the WW1 style Maginot line type stuff AAA and arty were moved and used the same, lots of AAA were actually smaller and more portable like the one referenced from saving private Ryan movie. The same Artillery unit was assigned both of these types of artillery for Canada anyway. Stands to reason other countries would be similar. My wife’s Grandfather was in Canadian artillery in WW2 and assigned to an Anti-Aircraft battery for part of his time, rest was standard artillery in Europe 1939-1946.
GHG
Is correct on the aircraft disappearance rates, tried that as a house rule. Brutally expensive!
HBG 1936 rules regarding fighter air superiority round (first round all fighter hits are assigned to aircraft if available), isn’t as bad for this. But can be advantageous to scramble fighters. Just to take out carrier aircraft, even though you are bound to lose the battle.
page 39 and 54, same as quote on Anti-aircraft.SS
Good idea on facility AAA pieces, will give me something to use my old AAA units from pacific and original games. but may make strategic bombing too easy, or expensive to defend. have you given this a trial run? -
Thanks for bringing up Saving Private Ryan where the Wehrmacht used the 20mm AA gun against infantry. That opens the door if AA guns should be able to shoot at infantry.
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If I was to ever change the OOB I would just allow AAA to move 1 space on a combat movement and change nothing else. If you’re going to change the air combat that much (as I had suggested) you might as well play a different game.
I was only relating how it works in Amerika and suggested how it might be adapted. As interesting as the combat dynamic is in Amerika I prefer A&A because it is much simpler and works well with the units involved. With the targeting of units it wouldn’t just be the air units disappearing quickly, it would be all of the pricey units. It would completely change the way the game is played from purchasing to placing and every step in between. You wouldn’t be playing A&A anymore.
The reason that I decided to enter this thread is because I wanted to caution all of you with the number of changes proposed in this thread. It might seem like a good idea when you’re talking about it, but speaking as someone who has used this system (air to air), I would say that it has no place in G-40.
GHG
Is correct on the aircraft disappearance rates, tried that as a house rule. Brutally expensive!
HBG 1936 rules regarding fighter air superiority round (first round all fighter hits are assigned to aircraft if available), isn’t as bad for this. But can be advantageous to scramble fighters. Just to take out carrier aircraft, even though you are bound to lose the battle.
page 39 and 54, same as quote on Anti-aircraft.Thanks for sharing GHG,
IMO, from a lot of variations, the Attack 2 Defense 2 is the highest you can give to keep bearable attrition rate.
In this, 1914 Fighter units Cost 6 is correct as a dedicated aircraft to fight plane. 7 IPCs is correct too.Of course going all out with OOB combat values is completely OP, and a recipe for shooting down too many planes.
On offensive AAA, Ichabod, I think either up to 1 shot per plane or up to three planes seems simpler.
First option, because all other attacking units only had 1 roll each.
Second, AAA defense is preemptive @1 up to three planes.Going with 2 rolls seems an additional change.
There is a few threads on AAA in this forum, did you read some?
Honestly the thing that annoys me more than anything else about the AAAGUN is the movement restriction to Non Combat. It makes the unit very difficult to maneuver effectively on the map, and especially across the water. If making an HR adjustment I’d prefer if it worked like every other unit, ie able to move during the combat phase.
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Rank
As far as using different AAA guns I have used the white ones for Rocket tech ( SBR up to 3 spaces away from any territory ) and SPA and tank destroyers. But now I bought SPA and tank destroyers from HBG.
But know for my next 40 test game will need 3 AAAs with different colors or use the grey, white and 40 OOB 2nd edition AAA gun due to adding the attacking AAA gun. I’m going to probably paint some AAA guns fluresant orange or yellow. Depends on what game I play. Some pieces in 39 games have those colors already.
In the 40 OOB game if factory’s have built in AAA guns then just use the grey for 1 shot at a plane first round only A1 and D1 up to 3 planes or a shot at each plane. Can move on combat and non combat. No built in guns in factory’s then use grey AAA for defense and white ones for A1 D1 in all other territories but you need to buy first. If the factory’s have built in AAA guns then the grey AAA s on setup need to remove unless you want to start with A1 D1 AAA guns.
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SS
Yeah, Ill try it out your way. Always liked painted pieces bold solid colours need to stand out from the rest. Much easier to ID by type or country. Tried the fancy painting stuff, but without decals players are easily confused as to whose/what pieces they are. And then need a chart to explain it. -
@Caesar:
Thanks for bringing up Saving Private Ryan where the Wehrmacht used the 20mm AA gun against infantry. That opens the door if AA guns should be able to shoot at infantry.
Caesar,
I didn’t intend for a different HR idea (AAA vs infantry). It was a just a movie clip example displaying AAA being brought forward at the tactical level. That gun could have been shooting at planes, just not shown in the movie.
I think the gun crew was all dead towards the end of the movie…thankfully the US paratroopers all rolled good dice against them :)
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@Caesar:
Thanks for bringing up Saving Private Ryan where the Wehrmacht used the 20mm AA gun against infantry. That opens the door if AA guns should be able to shoot at infantry.
Caesar,
I didn’t intend for a different HR idea (AAA vs infantry). It was a just a movie clip example displaying AAA being brought forward at the tactical level. That gun could have been shooting at planes, just not shown in the movie.
I think the gun crew was all dead towards the end of the movie…thankfully the US paratroopers all rolled good dice against them :)
In the movie, the Wehrmacht was using it to shoot at paratroppers until they got flanked.
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@Caesar:
@Caesar:
Thanks for bringing up Saving Private Ryan where the Wehrmacht used the 20mm AA gun against infantry. That opens the door if AA guns should be able to shoot at infantry.
Caesar,
I didn’t intend for a different HR idea (AAA vs infantry). It was a just a movie clip example displaying AAA being brought forward at the tactical level. That gun could have been shooting at planes, just not shown in the movie.
I think the gun crew was all dead towards the end of the movie…thankfully the US paratroopers all rolled good dice against them :)
In the movie, the Wehrmacht was using it to shoot at paratroppers until they got flanked.
I own the movie. I digress.
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Here is a list of many threads on AAA, if you want to explore various possibilities discussed:
@Baron:
A post on all AAA threads below:
This thread introduce the idea to use AAA in offense against planes specifically, like AAA does in defense.
AAA Should Be Permitted to Attack
September 06, 2017, 11:00:35 am to Reply #62 on: Today at 03:41:05 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=40477.msg1691654#msg1691654AAA first shot ability, how do you see it?
May 28, 2016, 05:55:02 am to Reply #39 on: June 06, 2016, 08:50:28 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=38009.msg1544985#msg1544985About AA guns, here is the link to a thread which explains my most recent idea and showed many quotes from other people in various thread. Food for thought. :)
Two simpler and balanced ways to handle AAA unit (Antiaircraft artillery)?
July 27, 2015, 02:37:48 pm to Reply #5 on: July 28, 2015, 09:05:40 am
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36277.msg1433338#msg1433338Exploring cheaper & weaker AAA guns unit to promote much more buying
February 27, 2014, 10:22:38 pm to Reply #58 on: December 17, 2016, 02:18:32 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33118.msg1254008#msg1254008AA Guns
October 08, 2012, 11:31:48 am to Reply #295 on: June 13, 2013, 03:40:18 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28725.msg1019349#msg1019349Are Bombers broken? HR adjustment explorations continuating the Global tread
June 11, 2013, 07:46:51 am to Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 07:38:30 am
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31373.msg1151805#msg1151805 -
“This thread introduce the idea to use AAA in offense against planes specifically, not just regular combat roll.”
No. Just planes like AAA does in defense. I wanted to see if there is enough consensus to treat AAA units like it is on defense. From a military background perspective, this HR makes sense to me and also helps game flow mechanics.
I recognize the voting consensus of the community does not agree with this HR.
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Well I’m putting it in my 40 game this Saturday and were going to use AAA gun on attack at just 1 pre emp shot at a plane ( Up to 3 planes to much ). AAA can defend normally if defending from an SBR attack or land with a shot at each plane too.
Factory’s in my game don’t have built in AAAs. They get the grey AAA guns on setup and we will be using the white AAA guns ( you have to buy separate A1 D1 M1 C5 ) for showing that they are used both ways on A D.
IF you get Rockets Tech the Grey AAA guns can only be used for this tech. So you will need to buy more Grey AAA guns for Rockets Tech or move your Grey AAA guns because they can shoot from 3 spaces away from any territory for the SBR’s plus they still defend at each plane on attack too.
I may have to add a 3rd AAA gun color if you have rocket tech and defending only AAA guns. Easier to see if you forget to look at tech chart. May have to make tech cards to place bye your piece boxes so you know you have it.
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SS,
Please let me know how it goes; whether a huge impact or minimal. I’m thinking minimal impact. I remember hearing from you in other HR threads I started where you said that you would play test them. You must have a flexible group. Where I currently live, I don’t have an axis and allies group. I travel a good distance to a meetup group a few times a year where about 10-15 guys get together for G40 table top games. We’ve discussed trying to play various HR (like YG’s House Rules), but then when we get together; people back peddle and then say no, let’s do OOB and the “traditional” bid system.
Other than that I play on triplea.
If in HBG’s G36/39 factory’s don’t have built in AAA it makes sense to have different pieces. But your HR as explained is basically what makes sense to me (whether built in AAA or not).
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I can play 2 games in my basement for now with future options of a 3rd table. We play HBG 1st edition G39 game with main group and on 2nd table test playing my 40 game with a few guys from main group.
Yes I will let you know. Updates from 40 game is in the Global War Thread.
I don’t see it being over powering but do we make the starting Grey AAA guns in setup able to Attack too from the start without having to buy them unless you want more. Thats where it may be best to attack against only 1 plane per AAA gun. ? Would it be over powering now ? Would it benefit more countries ? Probably
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Yeah, I have a change of heart about AA guns. I think they should be able to shoot at infantry.
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@Caesar:
Yeah, I have a change of heart about AA guns. I think they should be able to shoot at infantry.
In the real world, anti-aircraft artillery would be an awfully expensive weapon to use for killing soldiers, when you consider the manufacturing price (and manufacturing time) difference between, let’s say, an 88mm explosive artillery shell and a 7.62mm rifle or machine gun solid-lead bullet. Also note that an anti-aircraft artillery piece is a lot more difficult to aim at a small, fast-moving infantryman than a rifle or a machine gun. And depending on how it’s fused, an AAA shell would probably cut right through a soldier without detonating, so it wouldn’t even have the benefit of causing secondary casualties among the men around him. As a tactic of last resort by a desperate AAA unit that’s under ground assault by massed enemy soldiers, it might make sense, but not as a routine battlefield tactic.
On the other hand, using AAA weapons against enemy armoured vehicles is perfectly credible, and in fact was actually done during WWII, notably when the Germans discovered that their 88mm FLAK gun was also a superb tank-killer (especially when fitted with a mounting better suited for the anti-tank role).
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@CWO:
@Caesar:
Yeah, I have a change of heart about AA guns. I think they should be able to shoot at infantry.
was also a superb tank-killer (especially when fitted with a mounting better suited for the anti-tank role).
Like the Mk V Panther?
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@CWO:
@Caesar:
Yeah, I have a change of heart about AA guns. I think they should be able to shoot at infantry.
was also a superb tank-killer (especially when fitted with a mounting better suited for the anti-tank role).
Like the Mk V Panther?
Actually, it was the Tiger tank which carried the 88mm gun, as did (I think) the Jagdpanther tank-destroyer version of the Panther. The standard Panther tank had a long-barreled 75mm gun.
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It was the panther II that experimented with a 88 gun since Germans loved the 8.8cm. AA guns obviously are not produced with the idea of stopping infantry however that doesn’t change the fact that one could aim it at them if need be.
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Here is one of the first thread about AAA usable against ground units, but not exclusively.
You will have to scroll here and there to read about AAA comments.
@Uncrustable:
1.a) Expanded ANZAC (The Commonwealth Dominions). Includes ANZAC, South Africa, SWest Africa and all of Canada. Capital remains Sydney. The IC on Sydney is changed to a Major IC.
1.b) A ‘united’ United Kingdom, UK income is no longer split between India and London. The IC on India is changed from major to minor. Capital is London.2. Enhanced AAA. AAA now acts as a normal unit outside of AA rolls. They no longer are restricted to non combat moves and attack/defend at 1/1. No changes to AA rolls. AA rolls are defense only (# of dice rolled does not change from OOB) AAA price remains OOB.
3. Enhanced air units.
Tactical bombers cost reduced to 10 IPCs.
No other change.4. Enhance naval units
Submarines 7 IPCs
Destroyers 8 IPCs
Cruisers 10 IPCs
Battleships 18 IPCs
Aircraft carriers 16 IPCs
Transports 6 IPCs
-When empty may move 3 spaces during noncombat move. No transport may move 4 spaces
-Transport ‘evasive maneuvers’, each transport caught undefended by an attacking warship or plane may roll 1 dice. A roll of a 1 is a successful evasive maneuver and that transport is removed from battle and placed back on the game board, a transport that evaded an enemy attack while undefended may not unload units until its next turn.…
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Everyone I appreciate the comments and participation.
Also, I recommend a completely different HR thread for AAA rolling dice at non-aircraft units.
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