AAA Should Be Permitted to Attack

[Ichabod]

@Caesar:

Thanks for bringing up Saving Private Ryan where the Wehrmacht used the 20mm AA gun against infantry. That opens the door if AA guns should be able to shoot at infantry.

Caesar,

I didn’t intend for a different HR idea (AAA vs infantry). It was a just a movie clip example displaying AAA being brought forward at the tactical level. That gun could have been shooting at planes, just not shown in the movie.

I think the gun crew was all dead towards the end of the movie…thankfully the US paratroopers all rolled good dice against them :)

[Caesar-Seriona]

@Ichabod:

@Caesar:

Thanks for bringing up Saving Private Ryan where the Wehrmacht used the 20mm AA gun against infantry. That opens the door if AA guns should be able to shoot at infantry.

Caesar,

I didn’t intend for a different HR idea (AAA vs infantry). It was a just a movie clip example displaying AAA being brought forward at the tactical level. That gun could have been shooting at planes, just not shown in the movie.

I think the gun crew was all dead towards the end of the movie…thankfully the US paratroopers all rolled good dice against them :)

In the movie, the Wehrmacht was using it to shoot at paratroppers until they got flanked.

[Ichabod]

@Caesar:

@Ichabod:

@Caesar:

Thanks for bringing up Saving Private Ryan where the Wehrmacht used the 20mm AA gun against infantry. That opens the door if AA guns should be able to shoot at infantry.

Caesar,

I didn’t intend for a different HR idea (AAA vs infantry). It was a just a movie clip example displaying AAA being brought forward at the tactical level. That gun could have been shooting at planes, just not shown in the movie.

I think the gun crew was all dead towards the end of the movie…thankfully the US paratroopers all rolled good dice against them :)

In the movie, the Wehrmacht was using it to shoot at paratroppers until they got flanked.

I own the movie. I digress.

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is a list of many threads on AAA, if you want to explore various possibilities discussed:

@Baron:

A post on all AAA threads below:

This thread introduce the idea to use AAA in offense against planes specifically, like AAA does in defense.
AAA Should Be Permitted to Attack
September 06, 2017, 11:00:35 am to  Reply #62 on: Today at 03:41:05 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=40477.msg1691654#msg1691654

AAA first shot ability, how do you see it?
May 28, 2016, 05:55:02 am to Reply #39 on: June 06, 2016, 08:50:28 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=38009.msg1544985#msg1544985

About AA guns, here is the link to a thread which explains my most recent idea and showed many quotes from other people in various thread. Food for thought. :)
Two simpler and balanced ways to handle AAA unit (Antiaircraft artillery)?
July 27, 2015, 02:37:48 pm to Reply #5 on: July 28, 2015, 09:05:40 am
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36277.msg1433338#msg1433338

Exploring cheaper & weaker AAA guns unit to promote much more buying
February 27, 2014, 10:22:38 pm to Reply #58 on: December 17, 2016, 02:18:32 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33118.msg1254008#msg1254008

AA Guns
October 08, 2012, 11:31:48 am to Reply #295 on: June 13, 2013, 03:40:18 pm
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28725.msg1019349#msg1019349

Are Bombers broken? HR adjustment explorations continuating the Global tread
June 11, 2013, 07:46:51 am to Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 07:38:30 am
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31373.msg1151805#msg1151805

[Ichabod]

“This thread introduce the idea to use AAA in offense against planes specifically, not just regular combat roll.”

No. Just planes like AAA does in defense. I wanted to see if there is enough consensus to treat AAA units like it is on defense. From a military background perspective, this HR makes sense to me and also helps game flow mechanics.

I recognize the voting consensus of the community does not agree with this HR.

[General 6 Stars]

Well I’m putting it in my 40 game this Saturday and were going to use AAA gun on attack at just 1 pre emp shot at a plane ( Up to 3 planes to much ).  AAA can defend normally if defending from an SBR attack or land with a shot at each plane too.

Factory’s in my game don’t have built in AAAs. They get the grey AAA guns on setup and we will be using the white AAA guns ( you have to buy separate A1 D1 M1 C5 ) for showing that they are used both ways on A D.

IF you get Rockets Tech the Grey AAA guns  can only be used for this tech. So you will need to buy more Grey AAA guns for Rockets Tech or move your Grey AAA guns because they can shoot from 3 spaces away from any territory for the SBR’s plus they still defend at each plane on attack too.

I may have to add a 3rd AAA gun color if you have rocket tech and defending only AAA guns. Easier to see if you forget to look at tech chart. May have to make tech cards to place bye your piece boxes so you know you have it.

[Ichabod]

SS,

Please let me know how it goes; whether a huge impact or minimal. I’m thinking minimal impact. I remember hearing from you in other HR threads I started where you said that you would play test them. You must have a flexible group. Where I currently live, I don’t have an axis and allies group. I travel a good distance to a meetup group a few times a year where about 10-15 guys get together for G40 table top games. We’ve discussed trying to play various HR (like YG’s House Rules), but then when we get together; people back peddle and then say no, let’s do OOB and the “traditional” bid system.

Other than that I play on triplea.

If in HBG’s G36/39 factory’s don’t have built in AAA it makes sense to have different pieces. But your HR as explained is basically what makes sense to me (whether built in AAA or not).

[General 6 Stars]

I can play 2 games in my basement for now with future options of a 3rd table. We play HBG 1st edition G39 game with main group and on 2nd table test playing my 40 game with a few guys from main group.

Yes I will let you know. Updates from 40 game is in the Global War Thread.

I don’t see it being over powering but do we make the starting Grey AAA guns in setup able to Attack too from the start without having to buy them unless you want more. Thats where it may be best to attack against only 1 plane per AAA gun. ? Would it be over powering now ? Would it benefit more countries ? Probably

[Caesar-Seriona]

Yeah, I have a change of heart about AA guns. I think they should be able to shoot at infantry.

[CWO Marc]

@Caesar:

Yeah, I have a change of heart about AA guns. I think they should be able to shoot at infantry.

In the real world, anti-aircraft artillery would be an awfully expensive weapon to use for killing soldiers, when you consider the manufacturing price (and manufacturing time) difference between, let’s say, an 88mm explosive artillery shell and a 7.62mm rifle or machine gun solid-lead bullet.  Also note that an anti-aircraft artillery piece is a lot more difficult to aim at a small, fast-moving infantryman than a rifle or a machine gun.  And depending on how it’s fused, an AAA shell would probably cut right through a soldier without detonating, so it wouldn’t even have the benefit of causing secondary casualties among the men around him.  As a tactic of last resort by a desperate AAA unit that’s under ground assault by massed enemy soldiers, it might make sense, but not as a routine battlefield tactic.

On the other hand, using AAA weapons against enemy armoured vehicles is perfectly credible, and in fact was actually done during WWII, notably when the Germans discovered that their 88mm FLAK gun was also a superb tank-killer (especially when fitted with a mounting better suited for the anti-tank role).

[Ichabod]

@CWO:

@Caesar:

Yeah, I have a change of heart about AA guns. I think they should be able to shoot at infantry.

was also a superb tank-killer (especially when fitted with a mounting better suited for the anti-tank role).

Like the Mk V Panther?

[CWO Marc]

@Ichabod:

@CWO:

@Caesar:

Yeah, I have a change of heart about AA guns. I think they should be able to shoot at infantry.

was also a superb tank-killer (especially when fitted with a mounting better suited for the anti-tank role).

Like the Mk V Panther?

Actually, it was the Tiger tank which carried the 88mm gun, as did (I think) the Jagdpanther tank-destroyer version of the Panther.  The standard Panther tank had a long-barreled 75mm gun.

[Caesar-Seriona]

It was the panther II that experimented with a 88 gun since Germans loved the 8.8cm. AA guns obviously are not produced with the idea of stopping infantry however that doesn’t change the fact that one could aim it at them if need be.

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is one of the first thread about AAA usable against ground units, but not exclusively.

You will have to scroll here and there to read about AAA comments.

@Uncrustable:

1.a)  Expanded ANZAC (The Commonwealth Dominions). Includes ANZAC, South Africa, SWest Africa and all of Canada. Capital remains Sydney. The IC on Sydney is changed to a Major IC.
1.b) A ‘united’ United Kingdom, UK income is no longer split between India and London. The IC on India is changed from major to minor. Capital is London.

2. Enhanced AAA. AAA now acts as a normal unit outside of AA rolls. They no longer are restricted to non combat moves and attack/defend at 1/1. No changes to AA rolls. AA rolls are defense only (# of dice rolled does not change from OOB) AAA price remains OOB.

3. Enhanced air units.
Tactical bombers cost reduced to 10 IPCs.
No other change.

4. Enhance naval units
Submarines 7 IPCs
Destroyers 8 IPCs
Cruisers 10 IPCs
Battleships 18 IPCs
Aircraft carriers 16 IPCs
Transports 6 IPCs
-When empty may move 3 spaces during noncombat move. No transport may move 4 spaces
-Transport ‘evasive maneuvers’, each transport caught undefended by an attacking warship or plane may roll 1 dice. A roll of a 1 is a successful evasive maneuver and that transport is removed from battle and placed back on the game board, a transport that evaded an enemy attack while undefended may not unload units until its next turn.

…

[Ichabod]

Everyone I appreciate the comments and participation.

Also, I recommend a completely different HR thread for AAA rolling dice at non-aircraft units.

[baron Münchhausen]

Maybe one issue about attacking AAA is that it can appear OP from a statistical POV against 3 planes:

@Fortress:

Why are we trying to fix something that’s not broken? I laid out the math very specifically. Nobody has refuted it. It literally couldn’t be fairer. They are worth exactly what they should be worth. Where’s the case that there is a problem?

Maybe I need to show my work on the math?

@Fortress:

+1 Jen. Part of the reason they only fire once at the beginning of the battle is that they’re able to specifially target air units. No other land unit gets to pick off opponents pieces when they hit, owner always gets to choose order-of-loss. As it is, a 5 IPC AA gun firing 3 times at 3 fighters worth 10 IPC each stands a 34.7% chance of hitting exactly once, a 6.9% chance of hitting exactly twice, and a 0.5% chance of hitting on all three shots. Against three 10 IPC, fighters, the total value of the kills is EXACTLY 5 IPC. I don’t think you can form an argument for more perfectly balanced gameplay than that.

AA guns are perfect the way they are.

AA gun firing 3 times at 3 fighters:

1/6 hit * 5/6 miss * 5/6 miss = 11.57%
5/6 miss * 1/6 hit * 5/6 miss = 11.57%
5/6 miss * 5/6 miss * 1/6 hit = 11.57%
-Those are the three ways to get exactly 1 hit = 34.7% hit exactly once * 10 IPC fighter = 3.47 IPC damage caused

1/6 hit * 1/6 hit * 5/6 miss = 2.31%
1/6 hit * 5/6 miss * 1/6 hit = 2.31%
5/6 miss * 1/6 hit * 1/6 hit = 2.31%
-Those are the three ways to get exactly 2 hits = 6.9% hit exactly twice * 20 IPC for 2 fighters = 1.39 IPC damage caused

1/6 hit * 1/6 hit * 1/6 hit = 0.46%
-That is the only way to get exactly 3 hits = 0.5% hit exactly three times * 30 IPC for 3 fighters =  0.14 IPC damaged caused

3.47+1.39+0.14=5.00 IPC

A 5 IPC AA gun causes 5.00 IPC average damage.

That is absolutely perfect. You can’t improve on that. Literally.

However, Q1-is there many occasions that three planes are attacking a TT?
The best way to undermine the strength of this defensive unit is simply to throw only 1 or 2 planes. Of course, when you need to capture a TT at all cost, it is all in. But, if you have to ponder between Tank and Fighter or TcB, not using plane at all is better but always aim below 3 planes, it downgrades AAA defense value.

Q2- Is there many occasions that AAA can attack a TT with planes on it?
Except for England, Japan and Moscow and a few VCs, it seems a rare opportunity to drag AAA until it reach such heavily defended TT.

Comparing to what can be done with a 6 IPCs Tank Attack 3 Defense 3, M2 and blitz, giving +1 bonus to TcB,
such 5 IPCs AAA with offense capacity still has many limitations, even if rolling @1 up to 3 planes on offense and @1 up to 3 defense:

• Move is 1.

• Whichever the lower number between AAA or planes: if there is more planes, it is still maximum 3.

• And if there is more AAA, it is still 1 roll max per plane.

• You can fight against less than 3 planes, so its combat value can be at a reduced factor: from three to 2 or 1.

• Attacker always get the initiative to render AAA almost useless on defense, if he can afford to use only ground units.

• • It cannot attack or defended against ground units, so it is worthless by itself against a single Infantry unit.

• It is a single one shot deal while Tank can roll @3 each combat round.

• BUT, it is still a preemptive strike, better to prevent enemy’s roll.

  • AND, of course, you can directly hit enemy’s 10-11-12 IPCs units

[General 6 Stars]

Hey Ichabod

We’re gonna play with the AAA guns starting on setup will be A D  white AAA guns so we know there attacking and defending AAA guns against planes only. If you leave the territory with a factory in it you will need to buy a grey one or white AAA gun to protect factory. If you leave territory from a factory you must declare if it’s a A D white aaa gun or just a defending grey aaa gun. Once u leave factory u can’t change aaa gun to attacking too. I will use a (off topic) 3rd aaa gun for Rockets Tech.

Will see if Germany has any kind of advantage.