UK Strategy -"Middle Earth"

[taamvan]

Thanks for the endorsements, wish I got so many working at Sprint!

Im not trying to dismiss any idea outright.  Sometimes a static plan (esp for allies) is dangerous

esp in G42 we are now challenging this idea that india is hopless by forumlating

a rescue plan via persia so J3 doesnt pull odds
a takeback plan so japan doesnt flow tanks into russia belly and get comfy
a responsive plan that lets UK get assertive/protective if japan is dumb enough to wait or focus elsewhere

buys are awesome but unlike G42, its UK3 before you can drop 1 guy on persia, iraq, or even egypt (assuming threat) so GHG plan covers UK3-7 and its a deep commit.  GHG plan does accomplish the above goals if we can threaten japans control of india but alot of games are over or nearly over by turn 7 (aaa games last longer than live ones usually)

will try to watch your video when not at work

[GeneralHandGrenade]

The Research and Development game that I’m in the middle of is a perfect illustration of how my strategy works. The first 8 rounds are up on my channel right now and I’m hoping to finish the game this weekend. Although there are a few house rules involved I’m still using the same strategy. It’s a long series of videos and I don’t expect people who don’t have much time on their hands to be able to sit down and watch it. For those who do though, you can see how I take what the axis gives me and that my strategy is not nearly as rigid as my OP makes it out to be. Japan has taken India in the 9th round and the UK has taken it back. It’s shaping up to be a good battle over the Middle East. Germany is on the defence and Italy is completely out of the game now. The question at this point seems to be can Germany hold out long enough for Japan to take 6 Victory Cities.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

@GeneralHandGrenade:

Actually I’ve never had to land a fighter on Moscow to this point. The Germans haven’t gotten close enough for me to have to do that. I am aware of that strategy though and I’m sure that some day I will have to use it if things don’t go well for Russia. Sending mechs and tanks into the Eastern Front is usually enough to stop the Germans and Italians. It’s surprising how easy it is to do the reverse can opener against them in Bessarabia and bust into the Balkans or Romania. With Russia able to build in the Ukraine, it’s a lot easier than having to march units from Berlin or Northern Italy.

You must be playing VERY weak German players.  Unless that country decides to do a Sea Lion attack, there is no way that Russia can prevent them from laying siege to Moscow.  Key to the German plan is buying 10 tanks/mechs in Germany on G2 and supporting the spearhead army with additional fast movers and/or additional planes purchased on G3-G5.  Italy should buy a tank and mech on I1 and use their four fast movers + planes to can open as necessary.

Buying a factory in Persia on UK2 is an excellent plan since the fighters can prevent Germany from taking Moscow and slow down efforts to move into the Middle East.  I am surprised that you would allow Italy to take Egypt early in the game.  Germany can usually land enough planes to prevent a counterattack until Italy can handle the situation themselves.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

It’s more a matter of standing up to the Germans instead of running back to Moscow and hiding behind their Mommy’s skirts. You buy a combination of infantry and offensive units (tanks, artillery) and continually counter-attack the Germans where they expose the most tanks. You hit them with everything that can reach and then they are stuck rebuilding for yet another turn, and then another. You’re hanging onto more of your money while they are getting less of it so you can continue to make those kinds of purchases. Next thing you know help has arrived on the Western Front and up from the Middle East. Those 10 tanks of yours will die as soon as they hit the border and you’ll be saying to me “What, are you crazy? You’re not supposed to be able to do that!” Then I hit the next batch of tanks that roll over the border. Try it sometime in one of your games and see how effective it can be as a deterrent against the Germans. Or don’t. It’s your choice if you think there’s no way that Russia can possibly stand up to the Germans. Hitler didn’t either.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

There is a general learning curve where Germany initially struggles against Russia.  Players frequently find themselves open to counter attack and sometimes see that Berlin gets captured by the Red Army.  I assure you that in a non-BM game with normal dice outcomes there is absolutely nothing sane that you can do to prevent Germany from marching:

G3: Eastern Poland
G4: Belarus
  R4: Russian troops must retreat to Moscow or else Italian canopers take Smolensk and German fast movers take the capitol
G5: Bryansk*  sometimes a few German fighters are required to support the Italian/German stack for this critical move.

After that point the realities of the game take over.  Against an aggressive Russian player who built too many artillery and didn’t obtain fighter support from other Allied players, Moscow will fall.  Otherwise, I besiege the capitol and head down to the oil fields with a sub-force.  I have played very aggressive Russian players who are willing to throw away large stacks of infantry to prevent Italian canopening, but that only hastens the eventual fall of Moscow.  They are throwing away a bunch of units that defend as 2s in return for a few German units that attack as 1s.

You can go through the battlecalcs for each round.  It isn’t too hard to figure out how big each German/Russian stack will be with the assumption that two or three German planes will be lost in the opening couple of rounds.  Do the exercise and see that your ambitious plans do not hold water.  I am sure that you merely have found novice opponents who misspend German money and build too much fleet, throw away the planes, or do other stupid things.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Here is the reality, Arthur.

On offence Germany can impose it’s will on Russia in part because of the Luftwaffe. After they take a Russian territory they must land in a space they had before their turn begins. Then it’s Russia’s turn to attack and now it’s Russia who has the only air power in the fight to take back a territory that the Luftwaffe had to vacate on non combat move. If you are a decent player you can position your units every turn in such a way that you can counter-attack any space on the front lines. The counter for Italy’s can opener is the UK forces you bring up from the Middle East. Italy will only get 1, maybe 2 chances to do a can opener before they are removed from the game by the UK and American Forces who target them first in my strategy. Probably only 1 when they see what is coming for Rome and they are forced to retreat back to their capital to defend it. Germany will make some headway into Russia, there’s no doubt about that. The real question is can they get to Moscow fast enough. Russia doesn’t have to hold on all game, they just have to hold on long enough for help to arrive. It’s not just about how good the player is who is controlling Germany, they roll the same dice as a novice player with no better luck. It also matters how good the Russian player is. He can’t just attack for the sake of attacking, he has to be able to determine where, when, and with how many units he should counter with. There’s an art to doing it properly. It definitely takes some practice to get it right.

[Omega1759]

Generalhandgrenade. How about you just take a game with ABH to see how it goes?

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Sure!
I’ll give him a free place to stay and feed him well when he’s here. Not to sure how he feels about flying up to Northern British Columbia but he’s more than welcome.

[Young Grasshopper]

Hey GHG, I know that you’ve been busy introducing these Middle Earth ideas, I’ve been so busy but wanting to learn more… at this point is it a legitimate power move, what are people saying in general about it, what victory tokens if any would it help capture or prevent, and most importantly… can you talk your teammates into doing it at the convention?

Thanks for the update, sorry for not reading everything through myself.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Definitely the Africa tokens, Rome, India, and French Liberation would be affected by this. I have no idea what strategy we’ll be playing having never played a game with Sired and Widowmaker.

The strategy is getting mixed reviews as they all do on A&A dot org. Everyone has their own opinions of how to play the game and they’re sure that you don’t have a clue. That’s part of the fun of being here is the debates over who’s strategy is better which inevitably turns into declaration that anyone who doesn’t play Triple A has no idea how to play the game. Some day one of them will take the time to learn and perfect my overall Allied strategy and then they will realize that it isn’t the act of playing in a league that makes a person capable of concocting an effective strategy. It’s much more about instinct, the ability to read a game, react to your opponents moves, overcome back luck with the dice, and create strategies during a game that makes you a better player than just simply memorizing other peoples strategies and copying them. There are a lot of good players in that league who have those abilities, I know because I read the game summaries once in awhile. There are also a lot of good players on this site who don’t play in the league because they love the tabletop game. I’ve even played some guys (not many) who don’t even own a computer but could give the best ones here a run for their money because they can react to anything that you throw at them.

It would be fun to have the money to tour around and play everyone in their homes and see all of the ways that they customize their spaces. I know some would say that you can do the same by joining the league and playing on the computer but that doesn’t hold the same attraction for me. I’m very much looking forward to your tournament where I can have the privilege to play against good competition and meet some of the people from here in person. It’s going to be a blast.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

One of these days I need to go to Mt. Fairweather; perhaps I will have to look you up if logistics works out, GHG.

Your comment about the rapidly dying Italian canopener shows that you haven’t played that many strong opponents.  I rarely have issue with my four Italian fast movers running out of lives before I get to the Middle East. Sometimes the luck holds out and they can go all the way to Egypt. The main German stack moves on top of them so there are no opportunities to counter attack with either Russia or UK.  The only risky part of the early gameplan is on G5 when German planes must be used to reinforce the forces in Bryansk.  That gives the Allies a narrow window where they can launch an attack into Western Europe and not be as easily expelled.

I have found that people make far fewer mistakes when playing TripleA since it is easier to see all of the pieces and also to run many battlecalcs to see if there are any vulnerabilities.  Barring any crazy dice rolls, the good League players will always be able to either capture Moscow or push deep into the Middle East.  That doesn’t mean that the Axis automatically wins, especially in BM games where the Allies get so many additional objectives. Still, it has been a very long time since I lost as Axis in a no-bid game.

Anyway, back to your original discussion on the Middle Earth plan, I don’t see why you would take Iraq on UK1 instead of waiting until UK2 when you have more forces freed up for the attack.  What is the rush to take that territory?  Personally I love to strafe Iraq with UK and have a Russian fast mover capture it for the bonuses.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

I was sincere in my invitation Arthur. It would be an honour to host you or any of the other fine players here for a game or 2. I live only one block away from the highway that leads to Alaska so if anyone is ever going there by land please look me up.
To answer your question;
I like to take out the entire Middle East as quickly as possible because this is my base of operations (barring Sealion) for the rest of the game. I want to take away any possibility of Italy or Germany annexing Iraq whether coming through Syria or Turkey. I don’t save the money for Russia anymore like I used to because the UK has few options from this position to acquire IPC’s and they need the extra 2 that Iraq provides to be an effective cog in the Allied wheel. Taking both Iraq and Persia gives you 37 IPC’s in the second turn which will give me (probably) an IC, a Naval Base, and a Fighter. From there you have the 2 transports to take all of your Middle East units to Africa to start mopping up the stray Italian units south of Cairo. After that it’s only a matter of securing North Africa. I also found that the fast movers from the original Russia setup are invaluable in the defence of the Ukraine and ultimately the route to the Middle East. I’m still on the fence to a certain degree about not giving Iraq to Russia for the N.O. but for now I’m going with this plan. It’s a shame that the UK doesn’t get any N.O.'s for Middle East like other nations do, perhaps that was an oversight.

[General 6 Stars]

Yes UK should get a N.O. of 3 icps for controlling so many Middle East territories from the oil.

To bad I don’t play G40. I would try out this stuff GHG. I do have my 40 game. Maybe I’ll look at that and see if it will work in my game.  In my 39 game I can fortify Calcutta to the point of killing at least all of Japan’s ground and half of there planes if they want India.

I take it you bring back most US Pacific fleet to Atlantic side just on turn 1 and go for Rome ? I also want to try this. Nobody has done it in our games.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

No I pile the America Pacific fleet in Honolulu and shuck 2 dudes there every turn. If you build up the ground forces there and on Sydney then Japan can’t take the 6 Victory Cities they need to win the game. I build up the navy in the Atlantic first to the point where they are dropping units off in Europe and then I turn to building the Pacific fleet. I do try to put a boat on Honolulu every turn or 2 leading up to that so Japan can’t overwhelm them.

[General 6 Stars]

OK  We do the same. Thanks.

[MarshmallowofWar]

@GeneralHandGrenade:

It’s more a matter of standing up to the Germans instead of running back to Moscow and hiding behind their Mommy’s skirts. You buy a combination of infantry and offensive units (tanks, artillery) and continually counter-attack the Germans where they expose the most tanks. You hit them with everything that can reach and then they are stuck rebuilding for yet another turn, and then another. You’re hanging onto more of your money while they are getting less of it so you can continue to make those kinds of purchases. Next thing you know help has arrived on the Western Front and up from the Middle East. Those 10 tanks of yours will die as soon as they hit the border and you’ll be saying to me “What, are you crazy? You’re not supposed to be able to do that!” Then I hit the next batch of tanks that roll over the border. Try it sometime in one of your games and see how effective it can be as a deterrent against the Germans. Or don’t. It’s your choice if you think there’s no way that Russia can possibly stand up to the Germans. Hitler didn’t either.

Frankly, if your opponents are exposing German tank stacks to counterattack with no or light casualty bufferage, your opponents aren’t that good.

Marsh

[MarshmallowofWar]

@GeneralHandGrenade:

No I pile the America Pacific fleet in Honolulu and shuck 2 dudes there every turn. If you build up the ground forces there and on Sydney then Japan can’t take the 6 Victory Cities they need to win the game. I build up the navy in the Atlantic first to the point where they are dropping units off in Europe and then I turn to building the Pacific fleet. I do try to put a boat on Honolulu every turn or 2 leading up to that so Japan can’t overwhelm them.

Truism.

However, doing only this does allow Japan a free hand to keep pushing the Middle East or Africa once India falls, as they know your plan is simply to prevent a Pacific victory and so they only have to devote enough resources to hold the money islands and keep your US fleet at bay.

Marsh

[GeneralHandGrenade]

At some point the Germans are going to have to use their tanks to attack or there’s no sense in having them. Yes a good player will protect them as much as they can but I hit that territory with everything I can spare and still leave a defensive wall. Infantry, mechs, tanks, artillery, and all 4 Russian aircraft concentrated in 1 or 2 territories. It takes some thought to decide where and when to attack and there are many things to consider, running away and hiding is not a viable option if you want to have success against Germany. You only have to hold them back for a few turns and then they are having to fight the war on other fronts.

I’m ok with Japan thinking this and I hope they do put only just enough to keep the US fleet at bay. The US is only planning on doing the same in the Pacific until their floating bridge is operational in the Atlantic and then they will turn their attention to the Japanese. Basically what I’m doing is betting that I can take out Europe before Japan can take 6 Victory Cities. Middle Earth makes it very difficult to get a quick victory in Calcutta (not to mention making it hard for them to keep it) and piling infantry on Honolulu and Sydney makes it almost impossible for them to get 6 before Europe falls. That’s the whole point of sending as many units into the Middle East as possible, there is no easy way to get rid of them. You also have to be flexible enough to be able to put Americans where you need them in a pinch in case Japan does attack Australia or Honolulu. With the sizeable American income that is pretty easy to accomplish.

[WILD BILL]

GHG, I love to play UK, it is by far my favorite power to play too. I like the challenge of playing a power that is all over the map, and has many strengths and weaknesses. I like to gather/build my resources, and make a difference. The Mid East is a great place to focus your energy on because as you said you can interconnect Egypt, S Afr, Persia/Iraq, India and S Russia rather easily. You can get ftrs to Calcutta or Moscow when the time comes, and an Expeditionary force up through Caucasus to keep the axis away from the oil NOs.

With that said, I agree with the others and I don’t see your aggressive Russian strat working in most the FTF games I play in (saw your Russian U-tube video). First off I generally don’t sacrifice  the one Russian inf pickets at every territory on the front unless we are talking about one of my minor ICs, and they can somehow reinforce it (maybe through the Baltic Sea). I want the Germans to blitz through and expose their tanks to counter attack (which they won’t do). I do like to buy some air and art w/Russia as you do for attacks of opportunity, but you really rarely get to do a major hit and run unless certain conditions are met. Say the Germans try a 2-3 prong attack at the front leaving themselves too thin and exposed? Maybe they have no navy in the Baltic to amphib/reinforce, and/or no Italian can openers leaving them w/o air cover at the front then yea you start liking your chops as Russia. This BTW was the perfect storm displayed in your Russian video that allowed you to counter attack the two German held territories and squash the German advance the turn after Barbarossa started (plus you got pretty friendly Russian dice lol).

Most games I see the Italians open up doors for the Germans who then super stack E Poland, and drive one territory at a time towards Moscow taking the lands as the Russians evacuate. Why I buy some Russian air and art is so if the Germans split their forces or splinter off to take the oil territories I might be able to do a hit and run, or trade my former minor ICs keeping them from building there for a turn or two. Of course a strong UK presence in the Mid East can save the day, so I do like that part of your plan.

In your overall allied strat you have the US playing mostly defense in the Pac, and making landings on the Euro side. Have you ever had the Japanese by-pass India and punch into Persia? Our Japanese seem to wander over to the Mid East/Africa if left unchecked lol.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

I agree with everything you said about the Russian strategy Bill. The video that I did was only a demonstration to show viewers what they should look for even if that example was a bit exaggerated. I have seen some players do that as Germany thinking that putting that many tanks there would prevent the Russians from attacking that territory. I didn’t think I would take that many of them off but I would still attack against those odds to get as many tanks as I could off of them. You can take a lot of momentum away from Germany if you can get that many units off in a few counter-attacks. As I keep telling people here, you only need to hold them off for a few turns until the Allies get Russia some help. My whole strategy keys on Europe. You take Italy first and then you go after Germany. I try to put Americans in Europe by the 5th turn and that takes German money away the Eastern Front.

I haven’t had anyone bypass Calcutta yet in favour of Persia. Between India, Africa, and the Middle East there are a large number of UK planes, ground units, and a few boats so it would take a sizeable force to make a serious challenge to Persia. That means that they are taking at least half of their fleet out of position and I would go on offence with US Pacific and ANZAC. You have to be flexible in this game and be willing to take what your opponent gives you, especially when they make a mistake like taking their fleet out of the Pacific. The floating bridge in the Atlantic can wait a turn while you buy warships in San Francisco. I would think that it would be more likely that they would attack Honolulu but I try to dissuade that by putting a boat on Hawaii every turn or 2. If nothing else the US fleet is at least as strong as half of the Japanese navy which gives you the option of attacking if the other half sails away.