Tired of KJF

[U-505]

@ncscswitch:

@ezto:

3 inf, 1 ftr from india is ot a sure win against Fic

True, only 50/50 to TAKE FIC.

But it is 3 in 5 for killing all of the Japan forces there, including a FIG, which secures india another round AND reduces the forces available for China.

C’mon Switch. That is a huge gamble. The average result is a cleared territory which means the UK fighter dies with the Japanese fighter. What’s left after that, 2 inf, 1 AA in the middle east and no Egypt counterattack. That’s a big gift to be giving Germany if it goes average.

[666]

C’mon Switch. That is a huge gamble. The average result is a cleared territory which means the UK fighter dies with the Japanese fighter. What’s left after that, 2 inf, 1 AA in the middle east and no Egypt counterattack. That’s a big gift to be giving Germany if it goes average.

Agreed. It is not worth the risk.

[Guest]

Even if you just clear the territory, Japan can;t follow up and capitalize and take India on J1 since they lack manpower in FIC (and the SZ59 TRN is dead).  So, while UK may not re-take Egypt, they keep India (which you basically surrender on an India counter).

You still damage the Japan Navy with your UK fleet, sinking a ship, maybe two depending on how many BB’s are brought to SZ59
You still bleed off forces from Pearl, increasing the casualties there
And you bleed off/kill FIGs increasing casualty rates for China on J1, and for future battles due to lost airpower (from the FIC attack, and then from attacks in SZ59 and Pearl)

If it goes terribly wrong, what have you lost as UK?  You are gambling on nearly equal forces, and can ALWAYS RETREAT if round 1 dice go wrong (you CAN’T lose the UK FIG on the first round, even with the worst possible dice).

[ezto]

I like that there are alternates out there. Im getting tired of the same shit over and over.

[ajgundam5]

@ezto:

I like that there are alternates out there. Im getting tired of the same sh*t over and over.

Yeah I was about to say that I definently want to try some of this stuff out to make a different game. UK basically can sacrifice it’s stuff around Japan because who actually counts on keeping that for long anyway

[U-505]

@ncscswitch:

Even if you just clear the territory, Japan can;t follow up and capitalize and take India on J1 since they lack manpower in FIC (and the SZ59 TRN is dead).  So, while UK may not re-take Egypt, they keep India (which you basically surrender on an India counter).

You still damage the Japan Navy with your UK fleet, sinking a ship, maybe two depending on how many BB’s are brought to SZ59
You still bleed off forces from Pearl, increasing the casualties there
And you bleed off/kill FIGs increasing casualty rates for China on J1, and for future battles due to lost airpower (from the FIC attack, and then from attacks in SZ59 and Pearl)

If it goes terribly wrong, what have you lost as UK?  You are gambling on nearly equal forces, and can ALWAYS RETREAT if round 1 dice go wrong (you CAN’T lose the UK FIG on the first round, even with the worst possible dice).

Giving Germany a free armor blitz through Africa is far more damaging than keeping India for a few extra turns.

And I never bleed off forces that are going to sz52. Either I go in with overwhelming force or I don’t go in. Gambling with Japans navy is a sure way to get beaten.

And if it comes down to having to split my forces to attack sz52, sz59, and China, I will attack sz52 and only make one of the two other attacks, usually sz59. Eliminating the UK naval threat allows Japan to focus their entire navy on the US and it doesn’t hurt my feelings to let the China fighter survive because the US/UK forces in Asia are limited and Russia will have a hard time reinforcing Asia with Germany sending 40+ IPC’s worth of units at them every turn.

If you aren’t going to counterattack Egypt with the UK fighter then you would probably be better off using it to help attack the Japanese sub and then adding it to the US forces in sz52. At least that way, you give the US better odds with a counterattack in sz52 on their turn or even preserve that fleet entirely if Japan decides against attacking it.

[newpaintbrush]

@U-505:

@ncscswitch:

Even if you just clear the territory, Japan can;t follow up and capitalize and take India on J1 since they lack manpower in FIC (and the SZ59 TRN is dead).  So, while UK may not re-take Egypt, they keep India (which you basically surrender on an India counter).

You still damage the Japan Navy with your UK fleet, sinking a ship, maybe two depending on how many BB’s are brought to SZ59
You still bleed off forces from Pearl, increasing the casualties there
And you bleed off/kill FIGs increasing casualty rates for China on J1, and for future battles due to lost airpower (from the FIC attack, and then from attacks in SZ59 and Pearl)

If it goes terribly wrong, what have you lost as UK?  You are gambling on nearly equal forces, and can ALWAYS RETREAT if round 1 dice go wrong (you CAN’T lose the UK FIG on the first round, even with the worst possible dice).

Giving Germany a free armor blitz through Africa is far more damaging than keeping India for a few extra turns.

And I never bleed off forces that are going to sz52. Either I go in with overwhelming force or I don’t go in. Gambling with Japans navy is a sure way to get beaten.

And if it comes down to having to split my forces to attack sz52, sz59, and China, I will attack sz52 and only make one of the two other attacks, usually sz59. Eliminating the UK naval threat allows Japan to focus their entire navy on the US and it doesn’t hurt my feelings to let the China fighter survive because the US/UK forces in Asia are limited and Russia will have a hard time reinforcing Asia with Germany sending 40+ IPC’s worth of units at them every turn.

If you aren’t going to counterattack Egypt with the UK fighter then you would probably be better off using it to help attack the Japanese sub and then adding it to the US forces in sz52. At least that way, you give the US better odds with a counterattack in sz52 on their turn or even preserve that fleet entirely if Japan decides against attacking it.

I generally agree with U-505, but I generally prefer to kill off China because of the possibility of US industrial complex in Ssinkiang with 4 inf and 1 fighter to start is inconvenient for Japan, particularly if there’s an IC in India as well.  Sometimes, the UK player will fly the bomber east, and threaten the sea zone east of Japan; in that case, I think I would also attack the UK fleet.

[Guest]

Not killing China on J1 dooms Japan to slow progress in Asia.
The US INF, and FIG, backed up by Russian forces allows a nasty 1-2 punch that makes Japan have to put forces into Manch, Kwang and FIC directed at the central avenue of attack instead of north or south.

It makes China a meat grinder for Japan that USA can afford to maintain, but Japan cannot (since their income starts low, and if they get bogged down fighting for China, they do not gain much income elsewhere)

Combine this with the aforementioned strong press in other areas (like an FIC strike and UK fleet stack) and Japan is going to be hurting for quite a few turns (it once took me 9 turns to breach a Sinkiang IC as Japan).  And the Allies can maintain a newar full pressure assault on Germany, weakened only by 1-2 Russian INF per turn (after the initial Eastern forces are depleted in 3 turns or so), and USA down 10 IPC (2 of which are “preserved” IPC’s that are normally lost when Sinkiang falls, and 2 more are made from “trading” China, so ne4t cost to USA only 6 IPC per turn after the initial investment).

[Wazzup]

Simply not killing the fighter can cause major headaches.

[Jennifer]

What Switch is describing is exactly the problem.  What I want to know is how to defeat it?  I can set it up, I’ve done so numerous times. (And yes, to prevent you almost have to give Jpn 3 IPC to put an infantry in FIC)

[DarthMaximus]

Play strong with Germany.

I wouldn’t be to worried about the FIC attack, IMO it isn’t that great of an option.  I have seen Japan get absolutely hammered trying to take China (2 inf, 1 ftr) with 6-7 inf, 2 ftrs, where Japan can lose 4-5 inf easy.  I’m simply not worried about 3 inf, 1 ftr vs. 2 inf 1 ftr, not in ADS.

The only must attacks for Japan are China and Pearl.  Buy trns (possibly a DD pending UK fleet position) and ignore what happen in Fic.  You can probably attack Sz 59 too depending on what is there, but I’d rather hit Pearl if I had to choose one or the other.

If you get a 9 bid you can go 2 inf Lib, 1 Fic and solve the problem right there.

If you are only bidding to Lib, that is still okay just make sure you buy only land for Germany and include tanks.  Pending Russia’s attacks you might be able to go 5 inf, 5 arm (I perfer 10-2) but you need to have enough armor so you can move everything to Ukr on G2 and hold.  All armor should be in EE at the end of G1.
With the Afr bid UK/US still need to go to Afr in either rd 1 or 2 or both and that gives you time to be aggressive in trying to hold Ukr.  Once you hold Ukr the Allies won’t be able to pester Japan that much and pessure on them will quickly diminish.

My guess would be, if Germany comes out aggressive on G1 with a Inf/Tank buy then UK probably won’t even mess with Japan since it is clear Germany is in position to capitalize (they’ll also hold Egy strong).  Now that 50/50 battle in Fic doesn’t look too good and UK is risking a lot should they get no hits and Japan scores 2.

[Jennifer]

The major problem is that America outproduces Japan by SO MUCH that minimal forces from England and Russia can hamper Japan enough that Japan hasn’t a prayer of surviving being reduced to only her main island.

[DarthMaximus]

Try a 7 or 8 bid with Ger.  1 inf, 1 rt to Lib or 1 inf, 1 arm to Lib. 
I prefer the 8 bid.
G1 buy 10 inf, 2 arm (or some combination of inf-arm)

Now pending Russia’s attack, if you assume Wrus/Ukr attack you can send the trn and BB and everything in Europe to possibly hold Ukr on G1, pending the Russia losses in Wrus and buy.  You can also still take Egy and the UK DD if you want to send ftrs.
Now all those Allied troops out East are out of position and more times than not UK will want to counter Egy, and if they don’t you still have 2 tanks to blitz.  You can reinforce UKR on G2 with armor and ftrs and WE becomes expendable since you’ll get Wrus or Cauc in another turn or two, if the US still focuses on Japan.

I perfer to wait on the Ukr move unless it is really clear to hold.  I’ll still send the extra troops to Egy and have 1 inf, 3 arm left there.  G2 I take Trj and G3 I get the German Trn and BB into the Indian ocean and really wreak some havoc.
Yes Japan is weak, but Germany is a monster!
All Japan needs to do is turtle in Sz 60 or 61 (keeping fleet safe), have their IC on Man and Shuck troops to Asia that way.
You just have to be patient with Japan, while Germany gains the attention of the Allies.

The aggressive German open should really prevent the Allies from focusing too much on Japan.  If not Germany may be able to take Cauc then Moscow.

[Jennifer]

Oh, getting Germany out is not the problem.  But with no help from Japan and with the mainland Japanese territories gone and a Large American Fleet in the Pacific Germany’s going to get stomped.

Honestly, against a KJF you almost need 24 IPC bid.  You need the extra destroyer and 2 infantry for Japan and 2 infantry for Germany in hopes of breaking even.

[DarthMaximus]

Ya know, one the “fleet unification experts” might have an idea as well.

I mean an AC with 2-3 trns, might solve your problem.
I’m pretty sure the US has to go Atlantic in that case.

You might be able to take London otherwise.

[Jennifer]

I’ve tried an AC on Japan 2 with infantry to fill transports. And from that point on going 8 to 12 IPC of fleet.  Problem is, you are diverting more then enough at that point (just to keep America from taking out your Southern Islands) that Russia and England can walk over you.  And even if you can manage to keep them pushed into Novosibirsk, you only have 5 rounds before America has more then enough to obliterate you.

Meanwhile, England and Russia only have to keep Germany from taking all of Africa (easy) and from moving into Caucasus (easy).

[rjclayton]

I would have thought that Germany would threaten Russia/England more if the US pressure was in the Pacific.  How is England even getting troops to Moscow?  Why isn’t Germany cutting them off?  How is Russia able to push back hard against Japan in Novo?  How is it easy to keep Africa in Allied hands?  If England goes to Africa that pulls more troops from Europe giving Russia an even harder time containing Germany.

[Guest]

Jen, I think he meant GERMAN fleet builds.

[Truant]

Hello there

New member on the forum, however I’ve been surfing around here for a few weeks and I’m gonna throw myself into the fray :)
I’m not saying “I know the perfect way” but would like to give you a few advices how to play a defensive Jap and what to think of when on a KJF hunt is coming.

What I first want to say is that our current group plays with no bids, no tech, no NA. Still have a few new players so bids are not needed (yet?).
I have a lot of games behind me, both old and revised.
A lot of this will contain “this gives this and that, all of it ofc changes depending on what the enemy buys/does” and I can’t write all things that can happend and I won’t, this will be a long post anyway :D

What I do as Japan is first of all, avoid pearl if england flies it’s fighter there and you’ve lost the sub (I prefer pearl light), the 2 BB’s are really needed when defending.
The key in my Japanese defensive is to build transports (3 first turn with a followup of INF+ART + ftr if I can afford since you only need to fill 3 Trn, the last one is down in the south taking inf from the southern islands).
Ofc you have to kill China…if you don’t you ARE doomed, seen to many games with US pumping fighters/tanks in sinkiang.

So I prefer killing off the Brittish fleet and China, reinforce FIC from Jap and wait with Buy 1 turn (you get 3 TRN next turn that can massacre Buy)
Japan need to get going, but with a “slow-starter” you will get more troops (IC on mainland is a “fast starter”) and you have time to react if they go all out KJF and adjust for defence instead of offense.

Now when US comes over the pacific there are a few very important things to remember.
1. If he goes for extra bomber+ftr he will be a monster in offense, however his defence is weaker.
2. If he goes for AC you must be prepared for a very strong US fleet and you must equid your carriers with ftr’s.

Now the pacific is big, utilize SZ60 for naval defence if he goes wake island (to be able to use extra fighters) he won’t go for east indies.
Use the fact ftr have 4 in movement (ftr on AC SZ60 has a range 3 inland, and therefore you can move that one in ashore while a fighter ashore also attacks and flies out to the AC. You still reach Yakut and China from Sz60 and ofc FIC, therefore 6 fighters can act both defence for SZ60 and land and still be attacking every round).
The bomber should be in Kwantung as much as possible, same here, it will be able to strike the importand islands and wake island seazone.
(remember this is a defending japan, and that is what you are doing on a KJF, because if japan grows outside Novo/China/india well…then you’re not having a KJF).

What I want is the US fleet trading island in the southern pacific…why? because if the US moves his whole fleet to southern pacific he will be too far away to reinforce it from US and with 3 transports, 2 BB and 2 AC you can take 7 hits before even loosing attackpower (yes I mean you should sacrifice AC’s when it comes to a naval clash everything is about sinking US BB’s while keeping yours).
If he only uses TRN for taking you island, use ftr to sink the trn, 1TRN to retake the island with the help of a bomber from mainland.
A lot of people are obsessed with “taking IPC’s” but trading a 3 IPC island 3 moves away from your factory while the enemy has 1 move…that is not a good thing to do, because japan can easily get more land troops. US cannot.
Japan only needs 1 transport to retake islands, US need loads of transports to threaten japan.
And after 1 switch you have 1 INF (hopefully 2) on the island and suddenly US must dedicate more than “just 1 TRN” to take the island.

The biggest problem comes to…when should you attack the US fleet?
that depends way to much on how the US fleet looks like, I prefer boxing Japan and if I feel too threatened I go 1 round of only making 1DD + 2 Sub

So to sum up:
Kill off the brits so you only have to worry about 1 fleet.
Gather up you BB’s with extra TRN for superb defence.
Reinforce fleet with 1 ship / round if they are going KJF. (you can still afford 3-4 INF and 1-2 ART units to ship ashore)
If you are being reduced to 1 TRN, make that ship a TRN, if not build a sub, US really hates when he only has his trn+BB to choose what will die. If you feel rich make a DD

Japan will probably not grow, but that means that Germany can take Africa and more important put pressure on Rus. Important here is that I usually make a TRN buy for Baltic and then a DD on G2 to secure Baltic and simply hammer any brittish fleet trying to take Norway/WE, utilize your luftwaffe and you are secure.
(with 2 TRN in Baltic and 1 in Meditteranian sea you can send 6 INF/ART to the front each turn making a 4 INF 2 ART 4 ARM i very solid build for smashing Russia fast).
(When US goes pacific you simply sacrifice 1-2 planes to take out the american fleet if he tries going for africa).

I don’t know how your US are doing the KJF, I’m really interested in the US1-2 Buy.
A smart american buys a strike force US1-2 and skip transports to simply eliminate the Jap fleet and THEN start invading with TRN.
However most players buy Transports + INF to have with them in the 1st attack…which means the US fleet ain’t as strong as it could be. How does it look for you?