U.S & Germany

Yes of course. Japan had no joint operations with Hitler at all. All that rubbish about linking up in India is fabrication to sell more books with a new assortment of half baked ideas and conjecture.

Hitler wanted Japan to attack, but even the reality of this would have just opened up more cans of worms for Japan, which only indirectly would be helping Hitler by holding troops from railing westward.

By the time Stalin called his eastern forces to cover Moscow the Germans already ran out of time to win the war. The war was lost in October 1941 and Stalin brought his winter troops just after that point.

I think both Legion 3 and Imperious have made excellent points here.

We must not forget that despite Hitlers insane lust for power, he was a negotiator. I chose the loss of Mechant ships. THe US was publically very opposed to another war in Europe. If Hitler had been able to negotiate (or had the sanity and foresight to do so) with the US, terms could have been reached but we’ll never really know if that ever could have happened.

We must not forget that The British won the Battle of Britain almost completely on their own. We really didn’t help them significantly unitil war was declared. I do believe that us supplying England with oil or anything else was a definate act of war in Hitlers eyes. Let us not forget how hard The German ambassadors tried to come to terms (with false promises) with England. If only Hitler could have given up on the idea of taking The UK and come to a cease fire with them prior to or in the beginning of the Battle of Britain, I believe England would have backed off and Hitler could have allocated resources to defeat Moscow.

I still think theres a strong chance the UK would have used that time to for a military build up and things would have errupted between Germany and them eventually but had Germany already taken Moscow, things could have gone far differently and the war gone on much longer. However the US involvment meant certain defeat for Germany one way or the other so I think that if the US would have agreed to stop sending supplies to England, (who knows if they ever would have but public opinion could have swayed that decision after Peal Harbor) then the US involvment would really depend on provokation by Germany.

However it’s been said in this discussion and I agree that Hitlers greed, pride and anger may not have allowed any of this to happen. Every major mistake he made was due to his pride and anger and a demonic like power lust. This is a very tough situation to look at in hindsight. We don’t really know what COULD have happened. We do know that the US was strongly opposed to a Euopean war however and we do know that Hitler considered our helping England an act of war. Great topic and great points here from everybody so far.

@Imperious:

Yes of course. Japan had no joint operations with Hitler at all. All that rubbish about linking up in India is fabrication to sell more books with a new assortment of half baked ideas and conjecture.

Hitler wanted Japan to attack, but even the reality of this would have just opened up more cans of worms for Japan, which only indirectly would be helping Hitler by holding troops from railing westward.

By the time Stalin called his eastern forces to cover Moscow the Germans already ran out of time to win the war. The war was lost in October 1941 and Stalin brought his winter troops just after that point.

I don’t know the details, but Hitler might have believed that if the Japanese seized British Colonial possessions then the British would be more likely to come to terms, with the Germans as potential mediators.  His strategy was crush England in order to force them to surrender…he just couldn’t stick to it.

Declaring war on the United States was insanely stupid given the US political climate.  However, the United States was keeping his enemy Great Britain afloat and was delivering the bombers and other weapons that were destroying Germany.

He must have believed his forces would take Moscow before the United States had any impact.

Merchant ships would decied. If U-boats started sinking our boats we would go against Germany. But if no u-boats attacked we would eventually be against the nazis. I saw on the History channel that Hilter was going to attack America but when Japan struck Pearl Harbor he forgot about his attack and declared war.

Bare in mind that Great Britain won the battle of Britain with damn near no help from us in a military sense.

I think I would say that once Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbour that the US declaring war on Germany would have been a very remote possibility.

Declaring War on the USA was one of the dumbest things Germany did. The American public welcomed war against Japan only because they were attacked, convincing them to go after Germany, while a clear and present danger existed in Japan would have been difficult to say the least.

@Obergruppenfuhrer:

Bare in mind that Great Britain won the battle of Britain with damn near no help from us in a military sense.

Really, So where did Britain get its 100 octane fuel that The RAF so desperatly needed.  From the US.

In terms of raw manpower, yes I agree.  Otherwise I disagree

wrong

They Lacked High Quality Aviation Fuel

@Nickiow:

The US simply shipped UK aviation fuel to the UK btw, not US aviation fuel to the UK

I Need not say More.

You said it for Me.

If It wasn’t for the Good Old USA, Britain Was Sunk.

@Obergruppenfuhrer:

Bare in mind that Great Britain won the battle of Britain with damn near no help from us in a military sense.

the US also sent planes to help with the battle of britain.  old design planes, but they were used.

Winston Churchill said it himself, “if america doesnt enter the war, Britain is finished”

Blah Blah Blah

I have never met any such as you, who can Cut, COPY AND pASTE WITH YOUR sKILL.

So to back up my Statement.

Again, this table does not include numerous other aircraft such as trainers, transports, and utility types in British service, as well as general aeronautical equipment furnished from America, such as engines, propellers, instrumentation, tires, tools, parts, and the like. (Overall, by August 15, 1940, Great Britain had already placed orders for 20,000 American airplanes and 42,000 engines). Further, thanks both to prewar agreement and wartime sales arrangements, American suppliers delivered sufficient quantities of performance-enhancing 100 octane fuel to England in time for use by RAF Fighter Command during the Battle of Britain, a contribution of profound significance to the operational success of both the Spitfire and Hurricane fighters.

There it is in Black and White.

where did I find this

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/EARS/Hallionpapers/battleofbritainsep98.htm

Seriously, Nickiow

Using the D&D spell “Cast Wall of Text” is not exactly constructive or useful. I read your argument, and there is some good info in their but it is swamped and lost.

Might i suggest you check out this link, the skills shown here will greatly increase our understanding of what you want to say.

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/619/01/

PS. This is my History teacher coming out in me ;)

I voted that shipping would determine the outcome.  I’ve changed my mind.

The American people viewed WWI as a waste.  There was no way they would enter what was practically the same war.  After Pearle Harbor, the only enemy was Japan.  In fact, US aid to Britain would have most likely stopped, since resources would have shifted to fight Japan.

Correct, ShadowHAwk.  That’s how we got drawn into WWI as well.  Perhaps FDR would have pulled us into WWII one way or another, regardless.

What part of Europe are you from?

I would not say we were “just as bad.”  The fact remains that the Japanese bombed Pearle Harbor first, not the US bombing Tokyo Bay.  Nor did the US soldiers do anything as barbaric as burying people alive or machine gun hospital patients and nurses, as the Japanese did in China.

That is not to say that it was justified to drop napalm and nukes on Japanese cities.  It wasn’t.

That is not to say the 1937 embargo was a wise political move.  It wasn’t.

However, the fact remains that if it weren’t for the United States, you Europeans would still be fighting World War I.

The United States is not a perfect nation.  We are not Peace Doves.  Still, this fact cannot be denied about the Two Great Wars, the most horrific and bloody nightmares the world has ever seen: Europe started them.  America ended them.

There are fallen soldiers on your continent who never came home.  Show some respect.

Hmm.  Perhaps I’ve misunderstood you.  You were connecting two actions which were an act of war, yet no war was declared (Pearle Harbor, and shipping war materials).  You were stating that the US was “just as bad” as Japan in only that respect.  Still, if it’s true that the Japanese only committed a timezone error, then you really can’t connect the two after all.

Also, what do you mean by “sloppy with paperwork?”  Are you saying the US failure to declare war on Germany was literally a problem with paperwork, or is this some European figure of speech I’m missing?

Interresting, interresting…

The U.S. would have enterd the war sooner or later it was just to determind how…
and like allready mentioned in here they were already involved it just needed to be official.

another point is the debate about england.
I don’t think that hitler ever wanted to conquer england at all.
he never mentioned england as a place for his race in “mein kampf” and it was more likley the opposite way that he wanted to come to an agrrement w. them to fight his war against russia for his goal and have his back free!!!

in the end he was still unpredictable and changed his mind often on things…

Hitler declared war on the US in the hope that Japan would declare war on Russia and alleviate the some  of the pressure on his Moscow  front. Stalin counterattacked with his siberians on Dec 6.

@Battlingmaxo:

Hitler declared war on the US in the hope that Japan would declare war on Russia and alleviate the some  of the pressure on his Moscow  front. Stalin counterattacked with his siberians on Dec 6.

And you base this on what?

I’ve never come across this theory being seriously put forward by a historian. If you have some basis for this I’ll be real interested in reading through it.

I read it. It was put forth as a possible explanation for why Hitler would do something so stupid. I cant remember the actual source. Try Hitler by John Toland or The German Army1933-1945 by Matthew Cooper. Considering Hitlers impulsive behavior it seems entirely plausible, don’t you agree?