• Never forget the much vaunted statement by Patton in Africa…

    “Rommel you magnificent bastard I READ YOUR BOOK!”

    Which means Patton LEARNED from Rommel.  So I would have to place Rommel ahead of Patton.

    Kind of like BGEN William “Billy” Mitchel is probably one of the greatest air commanders in history, eventhough he was “between the wars”.  He is the one who say what was possible with Airforce, and pushed the War Department to work with AF.  Without General Mitchel in the 1920’s, the US would have entered WWII as ill prepared as the Polish did…


  • “Rommel you magnificent bastard I READ YOUR BOOK!”

    Which means Patton LEARNED from Rommel.

    I dont base my opinions on a movie script. You have to look at the historical record of how he performed under different situations. Patton allways led his forces when he had the advantage and was invaribly assigned excellent logistical supply. He never had to fight a desperate battle when he was outnumbered 3 to 1 and still managed to come out on top. He was a great general when he had overwhelming numbers.

    The germans were usually on the short end of the stick in combat except in very early campaigns and about 1-2 short periods in a single battle.

    PS dont use wikpedia to support that movie quote… any bloke can just stick any type of jiberish imaginable on that site. Alot of that movie is accurate but many of his lines were embellished to add more effect. Of course he said many improper things and got himself in alot of trouble but in my books i have of him that was not one of his ‘real moments’.


  • And what of Mitchel then?

    Never fought a battle, but without him we would have had bi-plane observers to counter the Luftwaffe and Imperial Air Force.


  • He amoung others supported the idea that made large capital warships like battleships an idea of the past. But as you know the Japanese also knew about the importance of airplanes.

    The bombing campaign over germany was not as productive as men as like him and gen. Spaatz would have hoped.

    I dont think they are in the same catagory as a proper land general.


  • “Proper land general”???

    OK.  I have had enough.  Otherwise this former USAF Cadet will have to get medevil on your ass :-P

  • 2007 AAR League

    just go with the “bomb them back to the stone age” quote, should beat every land general there is.


  • “It is probable that future war will be conducted by a special class, the Air Force, as it was by the armored knights of the middle ages.”
    Brigadier General William “Billy” Mitchell, Winged Defense, 1924

    “In the development of air power, one has to look ahead and not backward and figure out what is going to happen, not too much of what has happened”
    Ibid.

    Both quotes courtsey of Contrails Volume 33, 1987-1988 edition


  • That future war is not any war that was fought before 1945. Today this is a different matter due to technology the lethality of warfare has progressed to the point where everything can be planned out. I think generalship is now a lost art because today everthing to the finest detail can be accounted and the ‘fog of war’ is lost. A war can be won before its even fought. Airpower can deliver the goods faster than any soldier, tank or artillery.


  • And that progression has been thousands of years in the making.

    Which is why I say that even with comparable weapons, a side-by-side of Napoleon and Alexander is invalid, because Napoleon has the advantage of 3000 years of advances in the methods of warfare (not just weapons, but also tactics) to anchor his abilities, while Alexander would be bereft of those 3000 years of accumulated skill.


  • OK, Napoleon cuts off Alexander’s supply. Right, Alexander had that happen to him when his first invading Persia. Darius cut of his supply had him surrounded and outnumber 3-1. Alexander fought his way through and won the battle. No surprise or innovation coming from Nappy there.

    Caesar himself admitting to not being a great field commander. I have no idea what innovations Caesar brought to the battlefield. He subjugated northern tribes much like Alexander did through the middle east. And the only large battle I am currently aware of that Caesar fought was against Pompey. Caesar had about 22 000 men to Pompey’s 44 000. Hardly epic, Caesar won.

    I wouldn’t argue that Napoleon wasn’t a great general. I agree he was an absolutely amazing general. His innovation of command and control was brilliant. However, the battle field tactics he used were not that different from what Alexander had done.  The main idea being to simply pin your enemies main force and thrust at a weak point in the line or flank with cavalry. Napoleon used infantry formations for this as well.

    IP I think I understand were you’re coming from, however, I don’t agree with you. Or, more accurately, I don’t agree with you interpertation of what makes a great general.


  • General comments:

    Alexander conquered an already falling apart Persian Empire that had already been soundly defeated by the Greeks at Marathon and Salamis. Alexander had a better army with the phalanx, and his troops were well trained, while the Persian troops were hastily gathered soldiers raised by hiring them for money on the spot–- eg. levies.

    Caesar on the other hand, fought against huge Gallic and German peoples who had never been conquered by the Romans. The people of Gaul were brave and brutal. At the battle of Alesia against Vercingetorix, Caesar, while besieging the Gallic leader, was surrounded by a huge Gallic army, which some accounts place at as large as 180,000-200,000 men. Caesar, with his force of 30,000, fought off both the surrounding army and the large force that he was besieging. In a great battle, Caesar annihilated the surrounding force and sacked Alesia, ending the war. Although against the Gauls he had superior troops with the legionaries, in the Roman Civil War he completely annihilated a Roman force which outnumbered him three to one and was led by Pompey the Great, one of Romes greatest generals. This shows that Caesar was greater than Alexander.

    “the whole campaign resulted in 800 conquered cities, 300 subdued tribes, one million men sold to slavery and another three million dead in battle fields. Ancient historians notoriously exaggerated numbers of this kind, but Caesar’s conquest of Gaul was certainly the greatest military invasion since the campaigns of Alexander the Great. The victory was also far more lasting than those of Alexander’s” —quoted from internet site.

    Battle of Pharsalus: Pompey vastly outnumbered Caesar with some 45,000 infantry and 7,000 cavalry to Caesar’s 22,000 and 1,000 respectively.Ceasar won.

    Siege of Alesia: Romans were outnumbered as many as 6 to 1. Ceasar won

    on the other hand Alexanders great ideas that be brought to the mix: the phalanx and the concept of Seige. But in both cases those wre allready in use from the contributions of others.

    facts:
    1)The tactic of the phalanx is sometimes credited to Alexander but It was Alexander’s father, Phillip, who developed that tactic of a phalanx.

    1. Secondly, the concept of a seige had been used for centuries, such as in the Assyrian Empire, where they have found remains of siege weapons and accounts of prolonged sieges.

    Conclusion: The Romans were constantly upgrading their legionaries until the late western empire. They kept adding new tactics and new training to keep them up to date. The greeks, on the other hand, rarely upgraded the phalanx, and it remained largely unchanged  hundreds of years after its  invention. So Alexander didnt “add” anything to strategy in this respect. Secondly, Ceaser was perhaps the greatest strategist in the tactic of seige as evidenced by Alesia. again the master of this tactic goes to Ceasar.

    Also, you have to Remember the armies of Caesars time were a lot bigger than in Alexander’s time, so they were more difficult to manage. This is a credit to ceaser and its also a credit to Napoleon.Alexander worked with comparatively smaller forces so it was an easier project to manage.

    An other difference between Ceasar and Alexander was also bound in temperament, and that was that Alexander acted mainly on impulse, as whole his nature and personality was impulsive, while Ceasar on the other hand planned everything he did like a perfectionist.


  • Heres another one to discuss……

    Ulysess S. Grant vs Robert E. Lee

    Generals during the civil war, both graduated the same year at Westpoint, Lee with high honors, and Grant at the bottom of his class.  In the end however, Grant defeated Lee, and ended the civil war.  Now discuss!!


  • Grant never fought a battle when he had less man than Lee. Lee nearly allways was behind the federals in manpower count. Plus the confederates were not even close to the Union in terms of equipment especially Artillery. The only real arm of the military they allways enjoyed was the Cavalry. They had much better riders and the training (the backround of the members ) was top notch.

    Lee faced nearly allways a do or die proposition. The south could not afford to lose any battles so the strategy was more direct, while the Union counted on many reserves and would take their sweet time taking down the South. The Anaconda plan was designed with the Northerns natural advantages in mind. The Southern strategy was predicated on getting foreign aid by the result of one decisive victory, but they never managed one except Fredricsburg which by then was too late.

    If grant changed places with Lee the South would have fallen in one year.

    Grant isnt even in the top five generals. He lost way too many men considering the proponderance of material. He allmost was an american Stalin.

    Grant was a better president and thats not even saying much because he sucked.

    In civil war: in order

    Lee
    Jackson
    phil Sheridan
    Forrest
    US grant
    stuart


  • The only way to accurately compare the generals would be to reduce them all to a common standing (say, what Alexander had to work with), and see what happens.  Also, if Alexander were so impulsive, then I think that says more about his military prowess - that is, if he didn’t stop to think about the future and plan, he was flying by the seat of his pants (and won anyway).

    Lee is far superior to Grant.  Lee did more with less, and I don’t think Grant could have done the same.  The Union army had the advantage of money, troops, and technology.


  • Good points there guys.  Alright lets go back a couple of years before the civil war and analyze two generals of the Texas revolution.  The two main figures……

    Antonio López de Santa Anna vs Sam Houston

    One lived his life as a dictator of Mexico and the other fought to break from his rule.  Alright you guys know what to do.


  • while Alexander would be bereft of those 3000 years of accumulated skill.

    But thats exactly what my last point on the comparison was about: Namely Alexander mearly used his fathers ideas, while ceasar really contributed to his game of warfare with improvements in how war was conducted. Ceasar brought more original ideas to the table in the art of seige warfare and also improvements to the organization of how the legions conducted combat.

    in both cases they used the skill set of the past but in ceasars case he created many new ideas in his own age.

    Napoleon also developed many new ideas that were latter emulated.

    Our warfare concept was at least in part credited to the German blitzkreig.


  • Antonio López de Santa Anna vs Sam Houston

    Well the only thing Santa Anna won was Alamo and he had to bring thousands of mexicans into the battle just to make sure he could win. In the defense of Houston the Texans were outnumbered 2 to 1 and still wiped out the mexicans. Beating the mexicans was like shooting ducks. The ‘leadership’ of this gang of holligans had little to do with the poor fighting qualities of his soldiers. They were on a morphine drip before they even entered Texas.

    i dont think this camparison has any meaning…

    The only real battle the mexicans would win was against the French at the battle of Puebla…yea what a battle like 4k against 6k big deal… Napoleons Wagram had like 330k men fighting thats a real battle.


  • I didn’t even read all the replies, mostly because there seems to be an emerging trend here.  Certain folks are arguing that this guy was the greatest general, while others are saying that that guy was the greatest leader.  General implies that he was strictly a military leader, while the word leader means that they could lead their country/empire well.

    As far as a great general goes, Alexander kicks a$$, hands down.

    And yes, it is also noteworthy to point out that these guys lived in different timeframes.  So, if you give Alexander the same technology that Napoleon had (gunpowder, for example) he could be that much greater.


  • People say that George B. McClellan was a gifted organizer of forces, training his men well.  Of course, as we know from history, he was not good at commanding them into battle.  Also, I have to agree that Santa Anna was a horrible general, but he did introduce chicles (later known as chiclets) to the US after his military career, so I guess his life wasnt that pathetic.  :-D

    Well ill think of some other comparisons later. Maybe the American Revolution?  If you guys have some good comparisons of generals, by all means post it so we can discuss.  :wink:


  • Yes this is a great thread.

    Yamamoto vs. fletcher or Nimitz

    Yamashita vs. MacArthur

    Manstein vs Rundstedt

    Molke vs. Hindenburg

    Hitler vs Stalin

    Yamato vs. Iowa class Battleship

    the bears vs. the NFL

    Ditka vs Jordan

    Ditka vs. god

    Bratwurst vs. sausage

    the list goes on.

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