Bonus Movement is Unrealistic Nonsense

I think this whole exercise was sarcasm, he (POPTECH) really doesn’t believe his views, rather he’s trying to argue the opposite in order to sharpen his forensics of debate, taking a far less traveled road.

@Imperious-Leader

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. :+1:

In that case he still has some work to do, as he certainly wasn’t convincing enough for me to get on his side, and I was very open/vulnerable to these arguments, being a stickler for historical accuracy.

If only he was more, I guess, chill about it, I might have actually agreed with him.

Instead his antagonism gave me no choice but to stand against him.

@Imperious-Leader sorry but i highly doubt this has been sarcasm on poptechs part.

@TheVeteran

Maybe Imperious Leader was joking?

i still think the German armored retreat from Yugo to Romania is the dumbest thing that people allow when you started in France. How do you get another movement?
HMMM.

@seancb that’s just where it can happen more often - it can potentially happen elsewhere too. But yea I agree - it’s stupid

The range of aircraft is just to large in the game in general. You can argue but its 4 months, sure that works for ships and land units but planes? Its not like you can land on water and refuel, or land in enemy airfields refuel and continue your mission right.

A heavy bombers could get from london to western germany and back just. Fighters could not even escort it until the invention of drop tanks ( Long range Aircraft ).

Planes could not fly 1 way from gibraltar to malta, now they fly from london to malta. It just makes planes way to powerfull and causes an inballance and weird situations.

On the bases thing, well if you consider things time related, how could a naval base cause ships to travel 50% faster? Or planes to go 25% faster? Bause thats what the range effectively is, just a speed increase

@shadowhawk

You have a couple of facts wrong:

Fighters cannot reach Western Germany from London nor from London to Malta until you have the long range aircraft technology (which is meant to represent drop tanks and other technology, like the B-29 allowing bombers to take off from Guam and hit Japan).

As for bases increasing range, the above comments already explained it.

@SuperbattleshipYamato

Planes also means bombers, and they can fly from london all the way to malta while bombing northen italy.
Fighters can get easy get from gibraltar to malta, where they would require to be dropped off more then halfway from a carrier and just made it.

But the insane movement of aircraft makes them way to powerfull in the game and makes certain areas just boring. Italy in the Med? Ofcourse not some US or UK planes can make quick work of them.
Building up forces with china, nah the japanese airforce will take care of them. Building transports near japan, nothing would prevent a bomber from western US to destroy them.

They are just way to flexible and powerfull compared to any other unit in the game.

@SuperbattleshipYamato LOL if they dont understand at this point we must be getting spoofed…

@Imperious-Leader

Agreed.

@shadowhawk

Distance from London, England to Luqa, Malta, is 2103 km.

The Halifax bomber, the only British plane at the beginning of the game that can reach Malta, has a combat range of 2990 km.

The real problem with destroying Italy is not plane range, but the fact that literally any and every plane is carrier qualified when that is very, very, not the case.

@shadowhawk

Anyhow, wanna play a game with me?

I’m the Allies, you’re the Axis.

You only build planes and I don’t build planes.

Let’s see who wins then. Best way to test your hypothesis in my opinion.

@SuperbattleshipYamato

Simple facts,
There was a big black gap in the atlantic at the start of the war where planes where not available. U-Boats had it easier as they where harder to detect.
There is a reason why there where so many escort carriers, if they could just fly planes over those areas they would have done so.

Operation pedestal, flying fighters from carriers to malta. About halfway gibraltar and malta they flew off and just made the island.

Doolittle raid, why would they bother if they could just fly off midway and crash on northern china, why bother with extra fuel modified planes and getting carriers halfway the pacific.

Most planes where capable of taking off a carrier just not landing on them, its different with modern planes.

The map is just to small for planes to have these ranges, but then again planes are weird anyway. Most movement represents movement over a longer timeframe, 3-6 months ( lets not debate how many ) but planes it represents the range of 1 day. Especially over water its not like planes can land and refuel.

Giving fighters 2-3 range and bombers 3-4 range would make a huge difference. You would have to station them near the frontlines and naval you would capture more islands. Also remove the islands as a step for planes to compensate a little.

@shadowhawk

In fact the gap in the game still exists. Fighters cannot cross from the US or Canada to the United Kingdom in one turn using the starting setup (so no new technology or air bases).

@SuperbattleshipYamato

Fighters are not long range scout planes.

And fighters can get across via island and greenland which was actually allied and could be used for that. And still there was a big gap in the atlantic. There is no zone in the atlantic that allied bombers cannot fly over.

@shadowhawk

Doolittle Raid is too small to be simulated here.

And in fact you cannot fly off of Midway and land in China anyways.

Only territories you can land in (if you’re actually bombing Japan, not just hitting sea zone 6) are:

Soviet coastal far east territories (unusable if the Soviets are neutral).

Kiangsu, Manchuria, Shantung, Korea, and Jehol (all controlled by Japan).

So yeah, can’t attack Japan.

@shadowhawk

Sure, most planes can hypothetically use a carrier, but I highly doubt all pilots were carrier qualified.

@shadowhawk

Pedestal’s the only one with merit.

Not sure what we can do about that, but I guess we shouldn’t do anything, considering everything else is accurate.

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in Bonus Movement is Unrealistic Nonsense:

@shadowhawk

Doolittle Raid is too small to be simulated here.

And in fact you cannot fly off of Midway and land in China anyways.

Only territories you can land in (if you’re actually bombing Japan, not just hitting sea zone 6) are:

Soviet coastal far east territories (unusable if the Soviets are neutral).

Kiangsu, Manchuria, Shantung, Korea, and Jehol (all controlled by Japan).

So yeah, can’t attack Japan.

Doolittle raid planes landed in japan occupied areas mostly so yea you can. Just that the plane cannot land and fly off again but the range is there.

Just because the default setup has rules that prevents specific attacks doesnt mean the range isnt there. Also USSR can just declare war R1 because there is no penalty and there you go you can do doolittle raid from midway.
Makes you wonder why did the US bother with only 12 planes that where stripped of weapons to carry more fuel and fly them off carriers. Just fly from midway much easier.