Vichy India

@Fredrico:

I had an idea that the French units in any territory be neutral (after Paris fell)

In case you ask me, I totally agree with that part, man…
And this should not be a special rule to France only, it should be a common rule to any player that lose his capital.

When you capital is taken, all your unoccupied territories and colonies become true neutrals. Period.

UK and US wants to land in by now neutral Morocco ? Then they must combat move in and fight.

Rome get taken by US, with both by now neutral Italian and still at war German units in Northern Italy ? Now that makes Northern Italy a contestet area, and I figure that the Italian units there must roll defense dice against the present Germans, just like they rolled against the invading US troops a second before.

But for this to work we must skip the silly and historically not very correct OOB rule that trigger all true neutrals around the globe to declare war on you

@oztea:

Because when the US buys the token for 5….
When it gets to soviet territory it can be cashed in for 10.

Thats to make it worthwhile for the allies to do.

Now I see better.

It is worthwhile for Allies to give IPCs to Russia, to get some troops in Europe it requires a long logistic line.
Simply giving (up to 12 IPCs) to Russia will allow a moving of 4 Inf from USA to Russia almost instantly.
When Russia and Archangel are part of a decisive ETO, it is in itself an incentive… unless playing with a greedy and selfish USA player.

That’s why it required some limits and the possibility to destroy some of this IPCs for Axis.

@Tortn91:

How about when Paris is taken Normandy-Bordeaux, Southern France, the navy in Mediterranean and the french force in North Africa joined the Nazis, but half of the units in France is moved to UK represents Free French forces who fled and the rest of the French territories in Africa and around the world remains unde Free French control.

It would have to be considered an alternate-history scenario.  The French Navy and the French colonial forces never joined the Nazis, and the number of French forces who crossed the Channel from France to England to form the Free French was nowhere near large enough to represent half of France’s military units.

On the other hand, it’s perfectly accurate to have some of France’s colonial territories go over to the Free French side soon after France is occupied becauset that’s what happened in reality.

I understand you’re point of you but as I like to be historical.
My Vichy rules is: When France falls, All french territory become Vichy ( except Congo = Belgium)
But UK- Free French player may influence some Vichy territory to join free french.
1 attemp pert turn. cost 2$.
You must have 2 or less. If you win, Vichy territory and unit become FFL and can be use in combat.

He was made the Villian because he made 1 statement (pro Nazi) that got printed in french Newspaper. I don’t remember exactly the headline but, it stated something along the lines “Here’s to a Nazi victory” or something like that. and thats what screwed him during Nurnberg trials

Petain actually helped his people, choosing to send them as labor to Germany vs Fielding French fighting Units for Germany. He chose work over bloodshed for his people in his mind. He had No Idea germany wouldnt return said workers AT the agreed time.

I saw a lot of Vichy/free french rules on this forum over the years.
There was some good idea but no rules represented the real situation of Vichy/free french in WWII.
It’s easier to make a simple rule than an historical rule.

AL

This may be butter on pork as we say in my country, but I want to clarify my above statement.

The real world neutral rule is, all neutrals are true neutrals, and they dont join the war because other neutrals got attacked at the other side of the globe, because in that case they would not have been true neutrals in the first place. Only when a true neutral got attacked himself is he no longer a neutral, and he can now join the side that did not attack him. When a nation at war lose its Capital, the remaining unoccupied territories will switch to neutrals, and follow the rules of engagement for neutrals.

Let me talk you through history.

Poland was a true neutral and did nothing when China, Ethiopia, Spain, Austria and Checkoslovakia got attacked just before WWII started.
Poland is attacked by Germany and is no longer a neutral, and must join the Western Allies UK and France, since Russia at this time is allied to Germany, the aggressor. Russia may later in this Turn attack and occupy Eastern Poland, to honor the treaty with Germany. Since all territory of Poland is now captured, Poland is out of play. Polish soldiers and sailors that want to continue the fight must go to London and fight under British command.

Finland was a true neutral too, and did nothing when neutral Poland got attacked. Part of Finland, the Viborg territory, is now attacked by Russia, and Finland is no longer a neutral. The Allies Britain and France want to help Finland, but are not able to move a unit into it since Finland is surrounded by true neutrals that dont allow passage. Only when Germany break the pact with Russia, is Finland able to join the Axis side. But the Fins only want to retake the lost territories, they never move into original Russian territories, no matter how much Hitler push them.

Romania was a neutral too, and did nothing when Poland and Finland got attacked, but when Russia attack the eastern part of Romania, known as the Bessarabia territory, Romania is no longer neutral, but can not join France because of its location, and is forced to join Germany.

Norway was a neutral too, and did nothing when their neighbors Finland and Poland got attacked. Now Norway is attacked, and immediately join Britain and France. British and French soldiers come to Norway, but must retreat after two months of fighting, because Germany take Paris and threaten UK with Sea Lion.

Neutral Belgium and Netherlands got attacked, and since Netherlands got colonies and territories on the Pacific map, that territories now got neutral. In this game they are pro Allies, but in the real world the Allies never got to test the pro neutrality before japan occupied it, and then they joined the Allies.

Not very neutral France never got attacked, in fact it was France that attacked Germany. But now Germany has captured the French Capital, and France surrender. When a player surrender, he stick em up and drop the gun to the ground. He never keep on fighting. Germany did not occupy all French territories, since that was impossible, but this unoccupied territories is now true neutrals. They will defend themselves against any aggressor. Some people name it Vichy France, but that is like Quisling Norway or Stalins Russia or Hitlers nazy Germany, its just a name. The fact on the ground was that the other players had to fight for every neutral French territory they wanted to move into, from French Indo China to Morocco. The casualties were from less to nobody, because the French morality was low and they were out of ammo, but anyway they had to fight. And the Free French forces was just locals drafted from French colonies after the Allies had occupied them.

Trade agreements.

True neutral Sweden had trade agreements with both Britain and Germany, and sent half of the iron to Germany and the rest to Britain with Blockade runners, and never joined the war no matter how many true neutrals got attacked. They did not care when their brothers in Finland, Norway and Balticum got attacked.

True neutral Turkey had trade agreements with both Britain and Germany and sent resources to Germany with train and to Britain with ship. They would only join the war if they got attacked themselves. They did not care when their brothers in their former Ottoman empire got attacked, like Persia, Iraq, Syria etc etc

True neutral Spain had trade agreements with both Britain and Germany, and sent resources to both. They never let Germany use their territory to attack Gibraltar, and Franco promised that anybody who tried to walk into Spain would meet resistance, both Germans and Brits. And if any had tried, you can bet Spain would join the other side.

Of course there are exceptions to the true neutral pattern rules, like Brazil that suddenly joined the Allies for some reasons just before the war was finished.

But I think this neutral rule is simple and historical correct. Now if USSR had lost Moscow, I belive the same thing would have happened as in France. USSR was multi ethnical with lots of different people, languages and cultures, all ruled from Moscow, and with Moscow gone they would be neutral territories, like when the empires of Austria and Turkey lost in WWI, the different people would claim independency and neutrality. Even if Stalin had escaped pass the Urals to claim a Government in Exile in Siberia, there are no way the Ukraineans, Belorussians, Georgians or Tsjekians would have kept on fighting. When you lose you lose. A boxer that is knocked out dont suddenly jump up and continue the fight after the bell has silenced. With UK I dont know, the Canadians and Aussies would for sure kept on fighting, but they were independent nations, and not British colonies as on the A&A map. Maybe Canada should be a specific nation with own nation specific units, but I dont think that is gonna happen soon

Ya well, eveything is a skirmish compare to the eastern front!