Vichy France

that fits in the bad idea’s compartment… sorry :s

It’s a good idea, but politically incorrect.  Kind of like having concentration camps as a national advantage for Germany.

@brettstarr4:

It’s a good idea, but politically incorrect.  Kind of like having concentration camps as a national advantage for Germany.

It’s also historically incorrect. At best, only units in Southern France, North Africa, and Syria should become axis(and not German; pro-axis neutral)

in the house rules my friends and i have, vichy france is in it and basically all french units in southern france and north africa become pro axis when paris falls

@MrNacho:

In my seemingly endless reading on World War 2, I just read about Vichy France.  I was wondering what the general feeling is to … instead of simply having France fall to the Germans (which it has in Germany’s first move in every game I’ve played) then see a few French units run around the board like a chicken with it’s head cut off…  to have all french units turn into German units.

…or would that wickedly unbalance things right off the bat?

In the rules for ILs 1939 version after Paris falls all the other French units just defend their territory as vichy. You roll dice to see what happens to the French fleet.

When France falls, I also convert French units in Southern France and all remaining African nations to Vichy.  All others revert ot UK Europe control as Free French.  Any French naval units in the Med or off the coast of Africa automatically become Vichy.  Any French naval units off the coast of UK or northern France roll D6 as follows: 1-3 scuttle; 4-5 revert to UK Europe as Free French; 6 Vichy French.  Vichy France collects no income and thus cannot build any new units.  Vichy French units can only defend, they cannot attack.  German and Italian units can move thorugh Vichy territories.

After several tests, this rule set is simple and does not throw the game out of balance.

Monroe, FCA and FEA should be Free French and FWA should be Vichy.

concentration camps as a national advantage for Germany

Someone should make this it’s own thread in the house rules forum.

Best idea I’ve seen all week!

One way to provide an alternate-history explanation for the switch of French units to the Axis side after the fall of France would be to assume that Vichy France declared war on Britain after the British attack against the French fleet at Mers-el-Kébir on July 3, 1940, in which about 1,300 French sailors were killed.  France didn’t do so in the real historical timeline, but the attack did put severe strain on relations between the two countries for a while.

I think the best way to deal with the situation without completely unbalencing the game is to make France relatively neutral to both sides after Paris falls. After all the only reason France was hostile to the Brits was because of the invasion of Madagascar. Before that they just collaborated a bit with the nazis without any intention of actually fighting the allies. Since relations are still okay between france and the allies when the game starts I’d say that France should become some sort of independent neutral when Paris falls.

@Monroe:

When France falls, I also convert French units in Southern France and all remaining African nations to Vichy.  All others revert ot UK Europe control as Free French.  Any French naval units in the Med or off the coast of Africa automatically become Vichy.  Any French naval units off the coast of UK or northern France roll D6 as follows: 1-3 scuttle; 4-5 revert to UK Europe as Free French; 6 Vichy French.  Vichy France collects no income and thus cannot build any new units.  Vichy French units can only defend, they cannot attack.  German and Italian units can move thorugh Vichy territories.

After several tests, this rule set is simple and does not throw the game out of balance.

My rule is that the UK only gets control of a French tt if it moves in a land unit on the next UK turn after Paris falls, assuming the Axis have not already done so.

I assume you also allow Japan to move through FIC; but does “through” mean they can leave units in there, for example can an Italian infantry stop in Vichy Algeria on route to attack US units in Morocco?

Vichy is created at the end of the entire turn after France (territory) is captured.  Vichy eligible territories are any French original-controlled territories, except French Central Africa.  Vichy territories are treated same as Axis Friendly neutrals.  Any French units in these territories are Vichy.  FCA is the only Free French territory and is treated as a Allied Friendly neutral, along with any other captured neutral territory.  
Procedure:  
During the turn when France is captured, the following can occur, if the Allies recapture France, then Vichy is not created and can never then be created.  If the Allies fail to liberate France on this turn, then the following happens:
a. Any Allied forces in Vichy territories in next turn must fight or retreat.  Allied AAA units cannot be taken as losses and cannot retreat (they are eliminated).
b. Any French captured Axis territories return to original owners, unless it also contains other Allied units- in which case follow step 2.  Any remaining French units stay as Vichy forces and defend.  If Axis occupies, see step 3.
c. Any French land/air units outside of Vichy and Axis territories are “Free French”.
d. Any French controlled neutrals stay French unless there are other Allied units - then control goes over to the other Allied power.

From that point the following is in place:
1. Vichy units can only make non-combat moves to another Vichy territory.  
2. They will defend against Allied attacks, however if alone, they will surrender to Free French.
3. If Vichy territory with units is occupied by Axis player, no new units are created at that time, any existing Vichy units are converted to the occupying Axis power.  
4. Vichy ships are neutral and inactive, except they will defend against amphib assault.  
5. Free French units may move as normal.  French ships in SZ110 are “Free”.  “Free French” forces can be ordered to attack Vichy units.
6. At end of turn Vichy created, Free French player can choose to scuttle any French ships.
7. Vichy ships are captured when the adjacent territory(ies) are occupied by Axis.
8. Vichy ships remain neutral and inactive when adjacent to territory(ies) Allied occupied. The Allied player does get the option to scuttle any ships.
9. All French units return to “Free” status when France is liberated.  
OPTIONAL rule- AT THE END of each turn, 1 Vichy unit in each territory (starting with highest price units) is removed.  This continues for each territory until there is only 1 unit remaining.

@The:

I think the best way to deal with the situation without completely unbalencing the game is to make France relatively neutral to both sides after Paris falls.

I totally agree, but then we are adding a new type of neutral, the relatively neutral. So we now have pro Axis neutrals, pro Allies neutrals, strict true neutrals and one relatively neutral if…., and they all come with special rules and exceptions… and what about Italy, they switched side in 1944, so how about a special rule that makes Italy join the Allies in Turn 10 ?

I belive the mess about neutrals exist because the designer and his crew had this forced thoughts that somehow the game had to be scripted in order to reenact the war in an historical correct way. That and for playability. Some would say that in the case of Romania, making it pro Axis is very simple and easy, since during the real war Romania switched side several times. It started the war as allied to France, then was forced to switch to Germany, and later when Russia was at the gate, they switched to Russia. Now how to make OOB rules that cover this and are playable too ?

Guess what, I have read tons of books from the civil war and to present, and they all tell the same, there are two kind of nations, they are either neutral or not neutral. This is very simple and how could the designer miss this ? The great powers are always in play, and the leader of a great power decide to join or stay neutral, like he is kind of an A&A player that controls this specific nation. The minors always start as neutrals, but join one side when attacked. The people in a nation are never pro anything. They always follow their leader. So all neutrals should be true neutrals, and they should only join a side when they got attacked. And let me add this, the OOB rules for true neutrals are strictly bedlam and derogatory, both at the same time, because there are no way in the history of man that a true neutral minor would join a war because another true neutral was attacked at the other side of the globe. With the OOB rules Japan can attack true neutral Chile in South America, and suddenly true neutral Sweden would be at war with Germany ? Yes, I am not kidding, can you belive this ?

Enough rant, let me get back to France.

There was never any Vichy. Germany just choose not to occupy Southern France, and since the French capital was captured, the French military forces overseas in the colonies were out of leadership, and could do nothing. And this is a pattern every time a nation lose its capital, either the nation is minor or major. There are no such thing as Government in Exile. Every time a nation got conquered by Germany, the Kings and Prime ministers would always escape to London and claim a Government in Exile to justify their escape, but the people and the resources of that nations would always stay. The enslaved and depressed people would follow their new masters, do forced labor or join the SS freiwillige, and that is modelled by the IPC income that Germany get from occupied France, Norway, Belgium etc etc. Of course there were always individuals that escaped the captivity and went to London to fight evil, but they were few, and their effort were blown up after the war to cover up for their nations pity war effort, but this rare events will not justify French A&A units, and remember an A&A unit represent like 100 000 men, moving around the map. After Paris fell, almost all French soldiers that was in Britain, either evacuated from Dunkirk or Norway, went home to France as civillians. The Free French Forces led by De Gaulle was drafted among locals in the African colonies. There were no white Frenchmen among them, except some officers.

So, back to basics. All neutrals are true neutrals, and they dont join the war because other neutrals got attacked. Only when a true neutral got attacked himself, can he join a side, because he is no longer neutral. When the Capitol of a playing power is captured, all unoccupied territories of that power is now neutrals, and must stay in that territory, and defend to any attacker. If this neutral territory get attacked, they join the other side. Simple KISS

This may be butter on pork as we say in my country, but I want to clarify my above statement.

The real world neutral rule is, all neutrals are true neutrals, and they dont join the war because other neutrals got attacked at the other side of the globe, because in that case they would not have been true neutrals in the first place. Only when a true neutral got attacked himself is he no longer a neutral, and he can now join the side that did not attack him. When a nation at war lose its Capital, the remaining unoccupied territories will switch to neutrals, and follow the rules of engagement for neutrals.

Let me talk you through history.

Poland was a true neutral and did nothing when China, Ethiopia, Spain, Austria and Checkoslovakia got attacked just before WWII started.
Poland is attacked by Germany and is no longer a neutral, and must join the Western Allies UK and France, since Russia at this time is allied to Germany, the aggressor. Russia may later in this Turn attack and occupy Eastern Poland, to honor the treaty with Germany. Since all territory of Poland is now captured, Poland is out of play. Polish soldiers and sailors that want to continue the fight must go to London and fight under British command.

Finland was a true neutral too, and did nothing when neutral Poland got attacked. Part of Finland, the Viborg territory, is now attacked by Russia, and Finland is no longer a neutral. The Allies Britain and France want to help Finland, but are not able to move a unit into it since Finland is surrounded by true neutrals that dont allow passage. Only when Germany break the pact with Russia, is Finland able to join the Axis side. But the Fins only want to retake the lost territories, they never move into original Russian territories, no matter how much Hitler push them.

Romania was a neutral too, and did nothing when Poland and Finland got attacked, but when Russia attack the eastern part of Romania, known as the Bessarabia territory, Romania is no longer neutral, but can not join France because of its location, and is forced to join Germany.

Norway was a neutral too, and did nothing when their neighbors Finland and Poland got attacked. Now Norway is attacked, and immediately join Britain and France. British and French soldiers come to Norway, but must retreat after two months of fighting, because Germany take Paris and threaten UK with Sea Lion.

Neutral Belgium and Netherlands got attacked, and since Netherlands got colonies and territories on the Pacific map, that territories now got neutral. In this game they are pro Allies, but in the real world the Allies never got to test the pro neutrality before japan occupied it, and then they joined the Allies.

Not very neutral France never got attacked, in fact it was France that attacked Germany. But now Germany has captured the French Capital, and France surrender. When a player surrender, he stick em up and drop the gun to the ground. He never keep on fighting. Germany did not occupy all French territories, since that was impossible, but this unoccupied territories is now true neutrals. They will defend themselves against any aggressor. Some people name it Vichy France, but that is like Quisling Norway or Stalins Russia or Hitlers nazy Germany, its just a name. The fact on the ground was that the other players had to fight for every neutral French territory they wanted to move into, from French Indo China to Morocco. The casualties were from less to nobody, because the French morality was low and they were out of ammo, but anyway they had to fight. And the Free French forces was just locals drafted from French colonies after the Allies had occupied them.

Trade agreements.

True neutral Sweden had trade agreements with both Britain and Germany, and sent half of the iron to Germany and the rest to Britain with Blockade runners, and never joined the war no matter how many true neutrals got attacked. They did not care when their brothers in Finland, Norway and Balticum got attacked.

True neutral Turkey had trade agreements with both Britain and Germany and sent resources to Germany with train and to Britain with ship. They would only join the war if they got attacked themselves. They did not care when their brothers in their former Ottoman empire got attacked, like Persia, Iraq, Syria etc etc

True neutral Spain had trade agreements with both Britain and Germany, and sent resources to both. They never let Germany use their territory to attack Gibraltar, and Franco promised that anybody who tried to walk into Spain would meet resistance, both Germans and Brits. And if any had tried, you can bet Spain would join the other side.

Of course there are exceptions to the true neutral pattern rules, like Brazil that suddenly joined the Allies for some reasons just before the war was finished.

But I think this neutral rule is simple and historical correct. Now if USSR had lost Moscow, I belive the same thing would have happened as in France. USSR was multi ethnical with lots of different people, languages and cultures, all ruled from Moscow, and with Moscow gone they would be neutral territories, like when the empires of Austria and Turkey lost in WWI, the different people would claim independency and neutrality. Even if Stalin had escaped pass the Urals to claim a Government in Exile in Siberia, there are no way the Ukraineans, Belorussians, Georgians or Tsjekians would have kept on fighting. When you lose you lose. A boxer that is knocked out dont suddenly jump up and continue the fight after the bell has silenced. With UK I dont know, the Canadians and Aussies would for sure kept on fighting, but they were independent nations, and not British colonies as on the A&A map. Maybe Canada should be a specific nation with own nation specific units, but I dont think that is gonna happen soon