Why is Taranto raid so popular?

@JDOW

Rock of Gibraltar

@taamvan good idea but I think “rock of Gibraltar” does not flow well.

How about “Gib defense” or how about: “I played a “Gib 92” in UK1 :-)”

@JDOW Then how about “I rocked Gibraltar” lol

A defensive stack isn’t as exciting as a battle. The technical terms are Bastion or Fleet-in-Being so maybe we can riff off that…Britty Bastion?

You are right about an attack vs a defensive move. but “bastion” is great

So we are coming close. I would now prefer “Gib(raltar) Bastion”

“UK1 92 stack” is what i think could anybody understand what is meant by that.

I did a UK1 92.
Oh ya, i know what you mean…

@Wizard said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

@barnee followup question: why is taranto raid so popular? What are the pros and cons?

Ok, a few points, first one being it’s not that popular any more.

@weddingsinger said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

I’m a believer in a UK scramble out of London on G1, if it will kill 3+ German planes.

Agreed.

@weddingsinger said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

Taranto can include the bomber from London and the fighter from Scotland.

Which gives odds of 82%, 4% draw, 14% loss. That loss is really devastating. Even failing to kill the Italian transport (draw) is bad.

Also, you’re only leaving the SZ91 cruiser and Gibraltar fighter for SZ96, which is 96%. These odds sound good but you need both battles to succeed so really you’re uphill in just over 20% of games, is it worth the risk? Perhaps.

The SZ92 stack can be better because it neutralises the Italian navy which can be finished off later, although it has a lot of risk in the event that Germany takes Southern France G1, especially if a plane is lost in SZ96. This is what @weddingsinger was pointing out.

The point is that Taranto is a do or die move. Because the Italians can’t complete their African campaign without their fleet. Doing Taranto and having it work means that Egypt is basically secured. Hence why it is fails, you weaken your air power and Germany and Italy both reap the benefit of this.

I think this is an interesting discussion. Of course JDOW is right when it comes to, to do Taranto or not. I like to do Taranto as I find it difficult to both establish a position in 110 and kill of the Italians. If you are going to do Taranto, scrambling G1 is off the table as you need 3 fighters and all the other usual stuff, unless there is a sub bid or similar

In the official G40 2nd edition you might let the italian sail on their own as the med is not worth as much, but you soon look at +10 for Italy. It is really not good. Then they buy a carrier a destroyer and some subs. It soon becomes a decent fleet with the 3 fighter scramble. In BM3 it is even worse as there is another 3 IPC for Italy as well as -3 for the british (med islands). So if you dont do Taranto and focuses on early 110 presence, how do you typically deal with the growing Italian fleet? The fleet is vulnerable if it leaves 97, but it also does a nice job there to protect 97 from the destructive convoy damage @JDOW

@oysteilo said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

If you are going to do Taranto, scrambling G1 is off the table as you need 3 fighters and all the other usual stuff, unless there is a sub bid or similar

As discussed above, you can scramble 110, you just can’t scramble both 110 and 111.

@simon33 said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

@oysteilo said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

If you are going to do Taranto, scrambling G1 is off the table as you need 3 fighters and all the other usual stuff, unless there is a sub bid or similar

As discussed above, you can scramble 110, you just can’t scramble both 110 and 111.

Of course you can! The consequence is 2 fighters for Taranto or just one cruiser and no fighter for 96 or just skip 96 completely

With two fighters for Taranto it is always right to scramble I think

I would call that option ill advised.

When you say 2 fighters, you mean a fighter and a tac? You can always use the fighter on Malta and tac from SZ98. And the bomber from London.

If you scramble from London you have 3 fighters, a tac and a bomber remaining in Europe. Fighters are in scotland, gibraltar and malta

I say in order to do Taranto you need 3 fighters, 1 tac, 1 bomber and the ships. The consequence then is to use the cruiser in 91 against the destroyer and transport in 96 or skip Taranto all together. Hence my claim that scrambling 110 means you cant do Taranto

Taranto works best (or even only works) if you also take out 96

Of course you can go for the 2 fighter, 1 tac and 1 bomber option but you are risking a lot by doing so

In the event that I scrambled 3ftrs to SZ110, I would never ever do a 3 fighter mission to SZ97. Use the Gibraltar one for SZ96, with the SZ91 cruiser. 2ftrs to SZ97 is 82% as I noted above. Perhaps a bit dangerous but not completely stupid either.

@simon33 said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

@Wizard said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

@barnee followup question: why is taranto raid so popular? What are the pros and cons?

Ok, a few points, first one being it’s not that popular any more.

@weddingsinger said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

I’m a believer in a UK scramble out of London on G1, if it will kill 3+ German planes.

Agreed.

@weddingsinger said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

Taranto can include the bomber from London and the fighter from Scotland.

Which gives odds of 82%, 4% draw, 14% loss. That loss is really devastating. Even failing to kill the Italian transport (draw) is bad.

Also, you’re only leaving the SZ91 cruiser and Gibraltar fighter for SZ96, which is 96%. These odds sound good but you need both battles to succeed so really you’re uphill in just over 20% of games, is it worth the risk? Perhaps.

The SZ92 stack can be better because it neutralizes the Italian navy which can be finished off later, although it has a lot of risk in the event that Germany takes Southern France G1, especially if a plane is lost in SZ96. This is what @weddingsinger was pointing out.

Hi Simon,

mostly agreed. One reason why I mostly avoid Taranto recently is the absence of a sub in 98 as a bid for the Allies. I find this sub essential to get the Taranto odds in the (imo required) 90%+ range, next to keeping the attack in 96 always at 95%+ odds.

In a nutshell: I, personally, need the sub in 98 to be comfortable with Taranto.

@oysteilo said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

I think this is an interesting discussion. Of course JDOW is right when it comes to, to do Taranto or not. I like to do Taranto as I find it difficult to both establish a position in 110 and kill of the Italians. If you are going to do Taranto, scrambling G1 is off the table as you need 3 fighters and all the other usual stuff, unless there is a sub bid or similar

In the official G40 2nd edition you might let the Italian sail on their own as the med is not worth as much, but you soon look at +10 for Italy. It is really not good. Then they buy a carrier a destroyer and some subs. It soon becomes a decent fleet with the 3 fighter scramble. In BM3 it is even worse as there is another 3 IPC for Italy as well as -3 for the British (med islands). So if you don’t do Taranto and focuses on early 110 presence, how do you typically deal with the growing Italian fleet? The fleet is vulnerable if it leaves 97, but it also does a nice job there to protect 97 from the destructive convoy damage @JDOW

Well, you can’t have it all! :-) It is your job as the Allied commander in Chief to get as much of everything with as little as possible. I prefer an early 110 position over convoying the shit out of the Italians early.
In the long run, Italians have 2 choices. They either defend 97 with their teeth but then they do not support the Barbarossa well and don’t do much helping the Germany defending the west. Or they support Barbarossa and allow the Allies to dominate the med sooner or later.
In my games, I usually will dominate the Med at some point. Later as other players do but therefore I apply more pressure from 110 early.

It also depends on how the Germans play. How aggressive against Russia? How defensive in the West. If the Germans play slowly against Russia and start fortifying Western Europe early --> Clear the med first. When they rush vs Russia and keep the West protected thinly, leave the Italians and go 110.

As always, A&A is different from chess as every outcome of every move is different and you basically never find the exact same position twice on the board.

@JDOW lets say the gerrys land a couple planes in Rome, at least threatening a full 3 plane scramble against Taranto, are you saying that anything short of 90% is a no go for the UK? I’m just trying to get an idea for how you play the game!

@Aaron_the_Warmonger said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

@JDOW lets say the gerrys land a couple planes in Rome, at least threatening a full 3 plane scramble against Taranto, are you saying that anything short of 90% is a no go for the UK? I’m just trying to get an idea for how you play the game!

Let me try to answer, even though i am not JDOW. The answer is yes, it’s no go.
You are better off saving your fleet at Gibraltar. Because it also protects against sea lion.

If you loose Taranto, you are in horrible shape

At Gibraltar you are threating the med and 110, even maybe Norway soon. If you are dead, none

@Aaron_the_Warmonger: Oysteilo got you my answer, I second his post above!

p.s.: I love “Gerrys”. :joy:

@oysteilo so its just a conservative move to try to ensure that, even though italy may start to break out quicker, the pressure is on the germans right out of the gate. And this assumes a 3 plane scamble in 110 by the UK on G1?

@Aaron_the_Warmonger said in Why is Taranto raid so popular?:

@oysteilo so its just a conservative move to try to ensure that, even though italy may start to break out quicker, the pressure is on the germans right out of the gate. And this assumes a 3 plane scamble in 110 by the UK on G1?

I am not sure it is a conservative move, if you mean conservative in the sense of not attacking I guess it is. I think the point is you are threatening many areas. What do you think happens if Italy decides to move out its fleet fram sz 97 where it has air coverage? Its dead. Does Italy want that? No, so its maybe forced to sit in 97. Maybe you force Germany to buy infantry for Paris to protect Normandy?, maybe you force germany to garrison Norway? I think that is what it is about. The axis need to consider where this fleet is and what it can do