What to do with the bid?

@simon33:

Abh, there is no amount of bid that you would do a yunnan stack?

I think it’s a real problem for the axis.

The Yunnan stack does become possible around the 40 bid point.  I still wouldn’t put it as the highest priority because Japan can entirely skip China, transport units to India and obliterate it on J4.  After that, Japan can focus on maintaining the Money Islands while sending their 60+ resources to attack the Middle East and Africa.  Losing all of China is not necessarily a crushing blow to the Axis.  Some bovine guy really likes that strat and has demonstrated significant success.  If you are not playing the Balance Mod, the Axis can score a late-game victory by crushing Moscow, capture India, and hold the Money Islands.  Eventually the German air force can project enough power into W. France, eastern Atlantic, and the Middle East that the Allies can’t simultaneously protect all three regions.  Something can crumble around G17 and the Axis will gain a sustainable economic advantage.

If you look at the TUV swing by adding an extra fighter in Scotland, the calculation is eye-opening.  That single extra unit can be enough to save the SZ111 fleet AND allow a more successful counterattack on UK1.  That fighter means you need two fewer infantry built in London, can aide in the defense of Gibraltar, make its way to Africa for critical UK3 or UK4 battles, end up in Moscow to retain control on G6 (or kill a bunch of tanks if a big battle happens), and then make its way down to the Middle East to protect that region around UK10.  That little fighter could end up with a massive swing during the course of the game if it works out according to this perfect scenario.

I would avoid wasting money on a Egypt factory with the bid.  A couple of arts can accomplish the same goal for significantly less cost.  Here is what Zhukov did with a 33 bid.  Overall the plan is very solid.  I would object to the Anzac infantry in New Guinea, but many players allow that build so you might as well try it and see if your opponent screams at you.

+1 ipc Russia
1 fig scotland, 1 ss 98
1 anzac inf ng
inf yunnan
fig russia

You’re preaching to the choir on the Scottish fighter. If that is bid, there becomes no way of attacking both fleets without provoking a full scramble.

I think that a Yunnan stack is optimal probably with bids of 30+. That way you can do the Yunnan stack with the Scottish fighter. In the event that Germany does attack everything and win, you do have to sacrifice Taranto which is when you might hit tobruk.

The fall of India j4 is by no means assured, although it is certainly possible. Losing all of China really weakens Japan and invites usa to go full kgf.

The other thing to point out about the yunnan stack is that if you’re dropping bid russian fighters there, they can fly to India before j4 to help defend. You can also take Persia on uk1 and build a factory there for extra units, if you know that your yunnan stack will be so huge that it will push Japan into attacking india.

@Argothair:

The other thing to point out about the yunnan stack is that if you’re dropping bid russian fighters there, they can fly to India before j4 to help defend. You can also take Persia on uk1 and build a factory there for extra units, if you know that your yunnan stack will be so huge that it will push Japan into attacking india.

The problem with this is Soviet fighters can’t get back to Moscow for a G6 attack unless there’s a neutral crush. Perhaps this isn’t a problem though because if there’s an abandon China strategy, the neutral crush is probably optimal, particularly if you can get on Norway before Germany can activate Sweden. It is a problem if Japan can fight both China and India but I can’t really see how they can do so.

My fear of the above strategy is so strong that I’m perfectly happy to give up 29ipcs and play axis but I won’t play axis against a bid of 30.

Having just done the Scottish fighter thing, I can see a major limitation with it. Without Germany attacking both SZ110 and SZ111 you can’t scramble and therefore the Luftwaffe live on to assist with Barbarossa. If you scramble G1, you can normally kill several Luftwaffe which reduces Germany ability project power to both Normandy and Moscow.

The UK figs are potentially more valuable than the German figs.  From a Barbarossa perspective, if you get UK figs to Moscow they will be worth more in the battle than attacking German figs.  You can use them to control the Med region before that.  More generally, there’s no shortage of targets on UK1 so every extra fig helps.

I combine Scot fig with ss 97 so I’m hoping to clip a few German figs during the 97 counterattack.

Germany would normally ignore one of the fleets with the Scottish fighter, or risk losing most of the Luftwaffe.

Yes, you could bypass the 6inf/1ftr UK1, although the benefit of this is pretty low unless the western defence is weak. Or perhaps you’re doing a SZ92 stack.

@Zhukov44:

The UK figs are potentially more valuable than the German figs.  From a Barbarossa perspective, if you get UK figs to Moscow they will be worth more in the battle than attacking German figs.  You can use them to control the Med region before that.  More generally, there’s no shortage of targets on UK1 so every extra fig helps.

I combine Scot fig with ss 97 so I’m hoping to clip a few German figs during the 97 counterattack.

Hmm, I would have said the opposite about the value of the fighters. Without some sort of Scandinavian adventure, UK fighters need to fly a long route via the Med. I suppose it’s doable with starting fighters though providing Italy doesn’t block it which they might do if playing BM.

The targets can be variable. If Germany loses the BB attacking the fleets and keeps its cruiser in the Baltic, the main targets are subs and SZ97. Although it can certainly happen that there’s a damaged BB to hit and Taranto and not enough planes for both.

I don’t like losing some Luftwaffe in SZ97, or the convoy disruption, so I generally either scramble or hit that fleet as Italy.

@weddingsinger:

@simon33:

Having just done the Scottish fighter thing, I can see a major limitation with it. Without Germany attacking both SZ110 and SZ111 you can’t scramble and therefore the Luftwaffe live on to assist with Barbarossa. If you scramble G1, you can normally kill several Luftwaffe which reduces Germany ability project power to both Normandy and Moscow.

Is that a strategy, Germany ignoring one of the UK fleets?  Does that create new issues?

I presume as UK I’d be free not to do a usual 6inf/1fighter buy

SZ111 is usually the Allied fleet to ignore if Germany only has sufficient resources to attack one on G1.  These ships can be killed on G2 but usually at a cost of a couple of subs, perhaps a plane or two, and potentially losing the ability to simultaneously attack a big stack in the Med.  I would purchase a sub + 2 bombers on G1 if I knew that SZ111 was being ignored.

As the UK, I would strongly consider purchasing a factory in Egypt on UK1.  Building 2 inf + 1 fighter in London is often sufficient to make Germany reconsider Sea Lion if they need to spend more heavily on controlling the Atlantic on G2.  That Egyptian factory is invaluable for controlling Africa, the Middle East, and the Med.  Convoy raiding Italy by turn 3 or 4 makes for a big shift in income.

The net result of that single Scotland fighter-bid is quite significant.

I don’t really disagree with that.

With the Egypt factory, I’m in two minds. It’s further from the action than a Persia factory but safer from being taken out by Germany if/when they come through the middle east. Do you build both factories? If so, it seems unlikely that you can keep all three factories pumping out useful units, or at least it will use up all your income.

Normally Germany will hit SZ91 if it bypasses attacking one fleet so you usually need to take 2 fighters from London if you are doing Taranto. I think this strategy might work best with a SZ92 stack. If the SZ110 fleet is taken out, you normally need to build an airbase on Gibraltar for this to work out.

The German sub+2bomber buy G1 is interesting. The SZ111 fleet can’t escape the reach unless Holland is taken by the allies.

Recently played a game where the German player ignored the SZ111 fleet and left it for G2. Instead he attacked SZ109, SZ110 and SZ106 simultaneously. This ensured there were no UK transports left alive after the first turn and he could pick off the 111 fleet at his leisure in G2.
I think it might be a useful countermove to still cripple the UK without being too bothered by the Scottish fighter.

I would be a big fan of placing 1 or more units in India (maybe even accompanied by an extra transport) as this gives more flexibility in my mind over extra units is Egypt. Using inf from India to strengthen Africa usually is aiding in the fall of India. However from here you are well positioned to take out Italy from the horn of Africa, land on additional money islands to grab a bit more cash (or fortify them so a japanese landing will cost them more dearly, and thus slows them down) or sets you up for a middle-earth tactic.

With the bid you could scramble 6 fighters onto SZ 109 so it takes a prohibitive amount of German Beef to ward that off.

They can still run to SZ 107 and be out of range.    The opener here is one of the most skillfully coordinated parts of the A+3 setup so its hard to exploit because the 8/6 (110/111) is right at the edge of being a wipeout requiring the Axis to bring it all and still have a substantial chance of losing.

If they bring the German BB, then the odds tip in Ger. favor, and bringing 16 hits total to both battles makes them a blowout that the bid or re-arranging the pieces slightly cant stop.

Nit picks:
5 fighters to SZ109

SZ107 is 4 spaces from SZ111, so that fleet can’t go there. Only if they ignore the SZ110 fleet it can reach and if they do that, why would you run to such a useless place?

@Quirky:

I would be a big fan of placing 1 or more units in India (maybe even accompanied by an extra transport) as this gives more flexibility in my mind over extra units is Egypt. Using inf from India to strengthen Africa usually is aiding in the fall of India. However from here you are well positioned to take out Italy from the horn of Africa, land on additional money islands to grab a bit more cash (or fortify them so a japanese landing will cost them more dearly, and thus slows them down) or sets you up for a middle-earth tactic.

Probably better to put the extra transport off South Africa.

@simon33:

@Quirky:

I would be a big fan of placing 1 or more units in India (maybe even accompanied by an extra transport) as this gives more flexibility in my mind over extra units is Egypt. Using inf from India to strengthen Africa usually is aiding in the fall of India. However from here you are well positioned to take out Italy from the horn of Africa, land on additional money islands to grab a bit more cash (or fortify them so a japanese landing will cost them more dearly, and thus slows them down) or sets you up for a middle-earth tactic.

Probably better to put the extra transport off South Africa.

Advantage of that is that you can fortify Egypt in 1 turn
Disadvantage you loose the flexibility to go for the money islands and delay the Japanese

So I think it depends on your focus/anticipation of the Axis plans

Yep. Fortifying the money islands - well we’re only talking about Celebes aren’t we? UK can take Sumatra and ANZAC can take Java. Or do you mean two transports to the same island? I don’t think that strategy is much good with a J1 DOW though. Japan will just crush your force for no real losses and you’ll have taken troops off India.

From South Africa you can also hit Ethiopia which you might not do without that transport. Or take Persia and do something else with the SZ98 Transport. The two inf who start on South Africa normally only arrive after Egypt has been secured so I think that is worth something. You can also land the troops on West India if you think fortifying India is the most important thing.