What's the one piece you think was missing from OOB?

Mostly agree with all the cool ideas thrown out there so far! Here are my recommended specs:

Air Transport
Cost: 9 IPCs
Attack: 0
Defense: 0, but can be taken as early casualty. If taken as casualty, cargo is lost.
Movement: 5 (or 6 if starting at Airbase). May freely interrupt movement to load/unload multiple times.
Cargo: 2 elite at any time, or 2 inf / 1 art / 1 AAA on non-combat only.

Elite
Cost: 5 IPCs
Attack: 2 (can be boosted by Artillery)
Defense: 1
Movement: 1
Cargo: can load 1 Elite on a CA or BB, or 2 Elites on an Air Transport, or treat Elites as Infantry on a Sea Transport.

PT Boat
Cost: 4 IPCs
Attack: 2 (can force subs to defend, but does not cancel sub sneak attack)
Defense: 2
Move: 1 (or 2 with Naval Base). Can never leave the coast it starts on, e.g. US Pacific Coast, or German Baltic Coast. Only moves laterally along a coast, never across a sea.

@Argothair:

PT Boat
Cost: 4 IPCs
Attack: 2 (can force subs to defend, but does not cancel sub sneak attack)
Defense: 2
Move: 1 (or 2 with Naval Base). Can never leave the coast it starts on, e.g. US Pacific Coast, or German Baltic Coast. Only moves laterally along a coast, never across a sea.

“PT Boat” is a US-specific term – so unless this unit is to be restricted to the US (which I don’t think is the intention), it would be better to give it a more generic name like “fast attack craft”.  I like the specification that such a craft can move along coastlines from one SZ to another, which is a realistic reflection of what these craft could do in WWII.

I like the idea of air transports being able to haul AA and artillery. As others have already mentioned you would want to let them haul 2 infantry. Otherwise you wouldn’t haul infantry hardly at all, probably : )

My question is, If you allow air to transport 2 infantry why would you use sea transport ? Increased cost I guess is a possible solution but, it just doesn’t seem right to have a air transport be able to haul as much as a sea transport.

Imo : )

Oh, gosh, Barney, lots of reasons!

1. Hauling 2 infantry isn’t as good as hauling 1 infantry + 1 tank
2. Air transports can be preemptively shot down by AA guns, which would also kill the cargo
3. Air transports have a deceptively short range; a sea transport can deliver infantry from London to Morocco, but (absent a forward landing base like Gibraltar) an air transport can’t.
4. Air transports can only ferry infantry on non-combat; if you want to deliver the equivalent of two infantry during a combat move, you have to pay 9 for the transport + 10 for two elite units, for a total of $19 – almost 50% more than a sea transport with 2 infantry (7 + 3 + 3 = $13).

CWO Marc, we could call the small local ship a “Gunboat” or even a “Coastal Gunboat.” I hesitate to call them “fast attack craft” because they have less move than an average ship, and they’re intended more to defend your coastline than to launch a strategic offensive, and because most units only have one or two words in their name, not three words.

Also Barney in my game I have Rockets  tech so now with air transport plane I could non combat an AAA gun to a friendly territory and SBR a IC or a base. Im going with
A0
D0
M5 +1AB
C10
2 inf NC or 1 AAA gun / 1 Art
1 Para Tr C

Para Tr
C4
Think 5 is to high.

@Argothair:

CWO Marc, we could call the small local ship a “Gunboat” or even a “Coastal Gunboat.” I hesitate to call them “fast attack craft” because they have less move than an average ship, and they’re intended more to defend your coastline than to launch a strategic offensive, and because most units only have one or two words in their name, not three words.

The designation would depend on what you have in mind in terms of which types of enemy units these vessels are meant to fight.  If they’re only intended to attack enemy transport ships, calling them gunboats would be fine: gunboats are typically shallow-draft, often flat-bottomed, relatively slow vessels, intended mainly for bombarding shore targets, but I imagine that in a pinch they could be used against transport ships.  A gunboat, however, would have virtually no chance of hitting (and even less of surving an attack against) a fully-fledged surface-combat vessel like a destroyer or a cruiser or a battleship, due to its slow speed and poor seakeeping qualities and its typically second-rate all-gun armament.  Torpedo-armed WWII fast attack craft, on the other hand, could and sometimes did attack such targets with a decent chance of survival (though not necessarily of sinking the enemny), an example being the Battle of Surigao Straight phase of the Battle of Leyte Gulf.

I cant see using the Gunboat in a game the size of 40. But I really can see using it in the AA Guadalcanal game.

@Argothair:

Oh, gosh, Barney, lots of reasons!

1. Hauling 2 infantry isn’t as good as hauling 1 infantry + 1 tank
2. Air transports can be preemptively shot down by AA guns, which would also kill the cargo
3. Air transports have a deceptively short range; a sea transport can deliver infantry from London to Morocco, but (absent a forward landing base like Gibraltar) an air transport can’t.
4. Air transports can only ferry infantry on non-combat; if you want to deliver the equivalent of two infantry during a combat move, you have to pay 9 for the transport + 10 for two elite units, for a total of $19 – almost 50% more than a sea transport with 2 infantry (7 + 3 + 3 = $13).

CWO Marc, we could call the small local ship a “Gunboat” or even a “Coastal Gunboat.” I hesitate to call them “fast attack craft” because they have less move than an average ship, and they’re intended more to defend your coastline than to launch a strategic offensive, and because most units only have one or two words in their name, not three words.

Not really following Argo.

Ncm transports can’t be shot at. Their range is 5, 6 with AB.

I’m seeing Air transport being able to move 2 infantry up to 5 or 6 spaces in ncm.

More movement than a sea transport. Moves same amount of units.

@barney:
The official range of a naval transport is 2 sea zones, but the infantry that load and unload from that transport can move through 4 zones. E.g. infantry starts in London, loads onto English Channel transport for free, then the transport moves one zone to French coast, then the transport moves a second zone to west coast of Gibraltar, then the infantry unloads for free into Morocco. Morocco is 4 moves away from London, but the 2-move transport can still make a delivery there. Even better, the 2-move transport can then remain in place just off the coast of Morocco, without needing to look for a landing site.

The air transport can move up to 6 zones, but it takes 4 of those zones just to make it to Morocco, so unless you have somewhere safe for the transport to land that’s only 2 zones away (e.g. Gibraltar), then the air transport can’t land anywhere after a combat move to Morocco, and so the air transport can’t deliver any units to Morocco from London on a combat move.

If you’re talking about strictly non-combat moves, then, sure, the air transport starts looking somewhat more cost-effective…but if you already have a beachhead, then you usually have other options for delivering reinforcements, like a minor factory, flying in fighters, building an airbase so that you can scramble fighters to protect incoming sea transports, conquering an adjacent territory to block the blitz, constructing a bunker, etc., etc. I might occasionally send a cargo plane to reinforce a key territory of my plane wasn’t busy, but the reason I would buy cargo planes is to invade and conquer valuable but unfortified islands like Malta, Crete, Java, Solomons, etc.

Ya but an AAA gun gets to shoot at a non combat plane. So rule is cant fly over any aaa guns period without getting shot at. Thats my rule. Plus the cost of plane should be no less than 10 icp if its going to do all that it can do.

I Getcha Arghotair  :-D

The move 4 though is, idk to me. Loading and ( to a lesser extent ) unloading seem like they shouldn’t be counted as moves.

Anyway Good to talk to you : ) Not trying to be challenging : )

It’s a good point that air transports shouldn’t be so advantageous that they render naval transports obsolete.  A good approach to solving this problem when devising the unit statistics and other features of the house-ruled air transport (relative to the ones for the existing naval transport) would be to apply the following principles from real-life WWII, so that each unit has advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages of ships over airplanes:

• Greater cargo-carrying capacity, both in terms of sheer volume and in terms of being able to carry objects (like WWII heavy tanks) too heavy for planes.

• Are cheaper to operate, in terms of dollars-per-tonnage carried.  (This is why sending packages from America to Europe by surface mail is cheaper but slower than sending them by airmail.)

• Can put regular infantry, or house-ruled Marine units, ashore during amphibious operations.

• In some circumstances, can operate across longer (meaning trans-oceanic) ranges, though this depends on multiple factors.

Advantages of airplanes over ships:

• Faster.

• Can deliver payloads directly to inland (i.e. non-coastal) territories, which ships can’t.

• Can air-drop paratroopers into friendly or hostile territories (paratroops have the advantage of being able to make surprise attacks on high-value targets behind enemy lines, but have the disadvantage of being more lightly armed than ground troops and of not being able to engage in prolonged combat without relief from ground troops).

@CWO:

It’s a good point that air transports shouldn’t be so advantageous that they render naval transports obsolete.  A good approach to solving this problem when devising the unit statistics and other features of the house-ruled air transport (relative to the ones for the existing naval transport) would be to apply the following principles from real-life WWII, so that each unit has advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages of ships over airplanes:

• Greater cargo-carrying capacity, both in terms of sheer volume and in terms of being able to carry objects (like WWII heavy tanks) too heavy for planes.

• Are cheaper to operate, in terms of dollars-per-tonnage carried.  (This is why sending packages from America to Europe by surface mail is cheaper but slower than sending them by airmail.)

• Can put regular infantry, or house-ruled Marine units, ashore during amphibious operations.

• In some circumstances, can operate across longer (meaning trans-oceanic) ranges, though this depends on multiple factors.

Advantages of airplanes over ships:

• Faster.

• Can deliver payloads directly to inland (i.e. non-coastal) territories, which ships can’t.

• Can air-drop paratroopers into friendly or hostile territories (paratroops have the advantage of being able to make surprise attacks on high-value targets behind enemy lines, but have the disadvantage of being more lightly armed than ground troops and of not being able to engage in prolonged combat without relief from ground troops).

Thats is why I have air transport plane costing 10 icps.
Plane C10  2 inf C6 = 16
Plane C10  1 AA C5 = 15
Plane C10 1 Art C4 = 14

Plane C10  1 para C4 = 14

Tran C7 2 Inf C6 = 13
Tran C7 1 inf 1 tank C9 = 16
Tran C7 1 inf 1 art C7 = 14
Tran C7 1 inf 1 AA = 16
Tran C7 2 Elite C8 = 15

Transport still the go to piece as far as quantity and plane for quick drops but still need to land.

If transports cost 8 then raise plane cost to 11 or 12

I may have to raise my plane cost to 12 in game due to trans costing 8 and each country starts with a Air Transport Plane.

Here is a ruleset that requires no extra units (e.g. commando/elite) or technology.
Air Transport:
Type: Air unit
Cost: 12
Move: 5 (can use airbases for bonus)
Attack: 0
Defense: 0

Air transports may not scramble, intercept, escort, or bomb.  They are not allowed to attack Sea Zones or land on carriers.  An air transport may attack a territory if it is paratrooping infantry there in the combat move phase.  While in combat, an air transport rolls no dice but may be taken as a casuality any time.  Air transports are subject to AA gun fire.

During the noncombat movement phase, an air transport may carry up to two land units (one must be an infantry and no tanks are allowed) to any territory that has been in friendly control since the beginning of your turn.  The air transport must end its movement in the territory it offloads to.   The air transport may also hold its cargo until the next turn, but in such case the units being held cannot fight and die if the plane dies.  Friendly units may use air transports of another nation by following a three step process:
1.  Loading units onto the plane
2.  Having the plane be moved on your teammate’s turn
3.  Offloading your units

Paratroopers:
Air transports may attack a territory by flying in paratroopers.  Paratroopers are standard infantry.  If there are any friendly units on board an air transport (e.g. a French troop on a British plane), those units may not participate in paratrooper attacks.  Paratroopers may work in coordination with amphibious assaults and/or overland invasions.  Paratrooper attacks follow this order:
1.  Load infantry onto air transport
2.  Fly to territory (the air transport must have moves left to land elsewhere)
3.  Parachute your attacking paratroopers
4.  Receive AA fire against your air transport (the paratroopers are able to survive a loss of the plane)
Paratroopers get a +1 attack (two or less) on the first round of combat.

No. Not KISS. Facilities  to big to damage for a paratrooper. Cost of plane to low to carry 1 inf and 1 non inf. I would rather attack a base with commandos elite unit thats what there there for from a transport then to get my plane shot down.

Deleting the commando thing and adjusting the price to twevle, would you consider this a good base line?  Perhaps the ability to withdraw the paratroopers is too overkill, or maybe letting AA shoot down the craft before the paratroopers offload is too dicey?

@Charles:

Deleting the commando thing and adjusting the price to twevle, would you consider this a good base line?  Perhaps the ability to withdraw the paratroopers is too overkill, or maybe letting AA shoot down the craft before the paratroopers offload is too dicey?

Delete the base raids for now. Plane cost 12 if u want it to do the rest but no advance after landing and no special other plane stuff u had written down. Plane can be shot down at any move with aa gun. Try play test with
A T Plane
A0
D0
M5 +1 AB
C12
2 inf
1 inf 1 aa gun
1 inf 1 art
2 para troopers +1 FROC only
2 Elite C5 ea +1 AROC

Its simple. Seems to me the aa gun could be very nice piece to transport.
As stated cant have the plane more powerful than the naval transport also.
Most wont even want this in game. You can always tweak it.

I do like your air naval base raids though using air drops. I just think a 6 dam is to high for an inf group on a large facility. ILL be thinking on that idea. Maybe 1 D6 roll and take half ? For me Id rather use d8 10 12s in games. More of a risk factor of being rewarded with accuracy.
But I think you also need elite forces to damage those bases to.

2 elite = 1d6 +2

For my game be 2 elite = 1d10  more risk to do being counter attacked.

I too have trouble imagining a small group of armed men inflicting crippling damage on a large (and presumably well-guarded) military base.  If that sort of thing was feasible, we would have seen operations of that type happening every week during WWII.  In the world of fiction, the 1943 movie Crash Dive depicts a small US commando force – a group of submariners, in fact – destroying a secret German naval base on an island which appears to be located somewhere in the middle of the North Atlantic, but this is a film that’s hard to take seriously: it’s 50% comedic shore romance and 50% action-adventure sea combat; one of the commandos who raids the island is an elderly sailor with a heart condition (he mows down half a dozen Germans with a Tommy gun, at one point); and it should be noted that in the real world there aren’t actually any islands (German-occupied or otherwise) in the middle of the North Atlantic.

For a good example of the workings of a real WWII commando operation (complete with heavy losses among the commandos) aimed at a high-value target, have a look at the Wikipedia entry on Operation Flipper, the unsuccessful 1941 British attempt to assassinate Rommel at his HQ, or watch the opening minutes of the James Mason film The Desert Fox.

Thanks CWO. Then scrap my thoughts on base raids in above post. Thought there was more raid type attacks in war. Still like it though. Maybe give the UK an event card saying can do a 1 time commando raid on something in game. Roll 1 d8 damage against any enemy facility on game map.