Global War 1940 2nd ed.

@Baron:

Thanks.

That’s what I believed.

The only special case is, for example, when 2 Subs first strike (Wolf Pack) get only 1 hit on 1 DD and 2 TPs.
So, there is no other attack roll from Subs but does TPs get an escape roll for the on going round or not?

Does 2 TPs get there evade roll right away, even if at the beginning they were escorted by single DD?
Or have to wait until the end of second combat round, once 2 Subs first strike have rolled?

According to your first answer it is still a yes.
When TPs get unescorted during a combat round, they make an escape roll.

So, my other comment and proposal is still valid:
@Baron:

Having to separate between first strike roll and regular ones and decide if TPs are allowed to roll for escape is slowing the combat process, IMO.

Maybe this slightly different rule may solve this and still be according to your previous view:
TPs get evade rolls at the beginning of combat rounds before Subs first strike (same time as Subs submerge phase) but these rolls only begins at the start of second combat round.

Escorted TPs can get this roll, not just unescorted.
(IMO, this is simpler, but the other way can be manageable too. If escorted at the start of a given combat round, there is no roll.)

You wrote this:

I know what you mean by rolling escape roll after attack roll to keep things more simple. But the 1 transport that did survive wouldn’t have survived unless it was an escape roll after attacking FS subs and before sub not FS attacked.

about this case:

Baron,  The escaping transport rule every body liked a lot. Transports get a escape roll before attacker rolls for every round.
            Except if subs have first strike it kills them first.

3 German subs attacking  UK  1 dest and 2 transports.

2 german subs (WP) attacking  @5 FS   Dice rolls  2 ger subs - rolled a 2, 11  1 hit
            UK picks Dest as casualty. So now with the transports being alone on ships attacking ( 1 Ger Sub yet to attack )
            lone transports they ea get a escape roll. 2 rolls = 2,12   1 transport gets to escape. Place on map.
            1 Ger sub @5 rolls a 6   no hit   1 transport escapes and other has to stay for next round of combat.
            3 Ger subs (WP) @5 FS  roll a 4,9,12  1 hit   1 Transport casualty.

In that case, the last subs would have get a roll, then all surviving TPs may roll at the beginning of second combat round.
In this special case, you get same results:
End of round 1
1 Ger sub @5 rolls a 6   no hit.

Next round, 2
All transports get an escape roll. 2 rolls = 2, 12   1 transport gets to escape. 1 TP is placed on map.
3 Ger subs (Wolf Pack) @5 FS  roll a 4,9,12  1 hit   1 Transport casualty.

For the other case…

4 German subs attacking UK fleet of 2 dest 2 transports

2 german subs (WP) @5 FS   rolls a 6,7  miss
             2 german subs @5  rolls a 2,12   1 hit
             UK takes dest casualty
             UK 2 dest roll a 3,4   2 hits
             Ger removes 2 subs for casualties.
             1 ger sub (WP) @5 FS rolls a 9    miss
             1 ger sub @5 rolls a 2   1 hit
         **    UK removes 1 dest left**
             UK dest rolls a 3  1 hit
             Ger removes a sub.
        **     1 ger** sub @4 FS  rolls a 2,10   1 hit ???
             UK removes a transport
             UK 1 left transport rolls a 8 for escape. Has to stay.
             1 ger sub @4 FS  rolls a 9   miss
             UK transport rolls a 11   no escape
             1 ger sub @4 FS rolls a 3  1 hit
             UK removes transport for casualty.

Combat round 1
             2 german subs (WP) @5 FS   rolls a 6,7  miss
             2 german subs @5  rolls a 2,12   1 hit
             UK takes dest casualty
             UK 2 dest roll a 3,4   2 hits
             Ger removes 2 subs for casualties.

TPs do not get escape roll this round. 1 UK dest still in fleet. Tps don’t roll for escape unless there all alone.

Combat round 2
Transport roll for escape: 2 rolls (not done according to your rule)

1 ger sub (WP) @5 FS rolls a 9    miss
             1 ger sub @5 rolls a 2   1 hit
         **    UK removes 1 dest left**
             UK dest rolls a 3  1 hit
             Ger removes a sub.

Combat round 3
Transport roll for escape: 2 rolls (not done according to your rule)

Tp don’t get an escape roll.

**     1 ger** sub @4 FS  rolls a 2 1 hit
           UK removes a transport
           UK 1 left transport rolls a 8 for escape. Has to stay.

Combat round 4
Transport roll for escape: 1 roll (it is the 8 done according to your rule)

1 ger sub @4 FS  rolls a 9   miss
            UK transport rolls a 11   no escape

Combat round 5
Transport roll for escape: 1 roll (it is the 11 done according to your rule)
             1 ger sub @4 FS rolls a 3  1 hit
             UK removes transport for casualty.

In this case, a different rule would have allowed 2 more rolls per TPs, since it take 5 combat rounds.
Allowing 4 evade phase for rolling.

IMO, my proposal is more forgiving for TP.

If use the variant which requires that TP is unescorted at the start of combat round, in the example above, it would be combat round 3 and you would get 1 additional roll because you still have 2 TPs before Subs first strike.

Tranports do not get a escape roll until there all alone by them selves. Thats it. Thats the confusion. Above posts you say forgot TP rolls are due to still a dest in fleet or FS sub attack.

In this hypothetic case, you probably answered not correctly according to your rule:
2 U-boats attacking  UK  1 DD and 2 TPs.

What would you do if there was only 2 Subs with Wolf pack hitting single DD?
Does 2 TPs get there evade roll right away, even if at the beginning they were escorted by single DD?
Or have to wait until the end of second combat round, once 2 Subs first strike have rolled?

2 subs hitting on first strike would of killed the dest and TP. The 2nd TP would of gotten a escape roll.

@Baron:

In this hypothetic case, you probably answered not correctly according to your rule:
2 U-boats attacking  UK  1 DD and 2 TPs.
         
What would you do if there was only 2 Subs with Wolf pack hitting single DD?

Your saying 2 regular subs (WP) both get hits on there attack roll ?

Does 2 TPs get there evade roll right away, even if at the beginning they were escorted by single DD?

No

Or have to wait until the end of second combat round, once 2 Subs first strike have rolled?

Here your saying now the 2 subs have FS attacks.

2 subs hitting on first strike would of killed the dest and TP. The 2nd TP would of gotten a escape roll.

@SS:

@Baron:

In this hypothetic case, you probably answered not correctly according to your rule:
2 U-boats attacking  UK  1 DD and 2 TPs.
         
What would you do if there was only 2 Subs with Wolf pack hitting single DD?

Your saying 2 regular subs (WP) both get hits on there attack roll ?

Does 2 TPs get there evade roll right away, even if at the beginning they were escorted by single DD?

No

Or have to wait until the end of second combat round, once 2 Subs first strike have rolled?

Here your saying now the 2 subs have FS attacks.

2 subs hitting on first strike would of killed the dest and TP. The 2nd TP would of gotten a escape roll.

Ok 2 Subs cannot get both First Strike against 1 Destroyer, even if Wolf pack, right?
So, there is one which get Surprise strike but never the other.

Meaning TP would get an escape roll between First Strike and regular sub attack.

Right?

Combat round 3
Transport roll for escape: 2 rolls (not allowed according to your rule)

Tp don’t get an escape roll.
� � �     1 ger sub @4 FS rolls a 2   1 hit
� � � � � �UK removes a transport
� � � � � �UK 1 left transport rolls a 8 for escape. Has to stay.

Transports do not get a escape roll until there all alone by themselves. Thats it. Thats the confusion.
Above posts you say forgot TP rolls are due to still a dest in fleet or FS sub attack.

I’m proposing you somewhat return to your previous rule on TP by allowing TPs to dive at the beginning of at least second combat round…
And waiting for no escort at the beginning of combat round to allow such escape rolls.
In the above case, instead of just one TP roll, you get two rolls. And TPs are allowed to escape because there is no escort beginning combat round 3.

A third variant would be, as you used before, to keep things less confusing:
When a TP is unescorted at the beginning of a round, she might try to escape and get a roll.

Naturally, on the first combat round, there will be no possibility if escorted.
And, maybe on second combat round, all escorting vessels will be sunk.

2 German subs @5 against 1 dest 2 TPs

RD 1  
1 sub @5 rolls a 2  1 hit
1 sub @5 rolls a 3  1 hit

UK removes Dest and TP to casualty side.

1 Dest @4 rolls a 8  1 miss

UK has 1 transport left.

RD 2
UK TP rolls for escape an gets a 2    TP escapes and no more battles

2 German subs @5  FS against 1 Dest 2 TP

RD 1
2 subs @5 FS roll a 7,9    2 misses

UK Dest @4 rolls a 7   1 miss

TPs get no escape roll due to Dest in fleet with transports

RD 2
2 subs @5 FS roll a 3,1    2 hits

UK removes from board a Dest and a TP

UK lone TP is alone now with no dest. So it gets a escape roll of 7   No escape

RD 3
2 subs @5 FS roll a 7,11   2 misses

1 UK TP rolls a escape roll of 1    Gets to escape. Battle over

Waiting until t3 for 2 TPs rolling for escape will probably be killed by the R3.

@SS:

**2 German subs @5 against 1 dest 2 TPs

RD 1  **
1 sub @5 rolls a 2  1 hit
1 sub @5 rolls a 3  1 hit

UK removes Dest and TP to casualty side.

1 Dest @4 rolls a 8  1 miss

UK has 1 transport left.

RD 2
UK TP rolls for escape an gets a 2    TP escapes and no more battles

**2 German subs @5  FS against 1 Dest 2 TP

RD 1**
2 subs @5 FS roll a 7,9    2 misses

UK Dest @4 rolls a 7   1 miss

TPs get no escape roll due to Dest in fleet with transports

RD 2
2 subs @5 FS roll a 3,1    2 hits

UK removes from board a Dest and a TP

UK lone TP is alone now with no dest. So it gets a escape roll of 7   No escape

RD 3
2 subs @5 FS roll a 7,11   2 misses

1 UK TP rolls a escape roll of 1    Gets to escape. Battle over

@SS:

Waiting until t3 for 2 TPs rolling for escape will probably be killed by the R3.

In your two cases scenario, applying this rule instead would not change anything:

A third variant would be, as you used before, to keep things less confusing:
When a TP is unescorted at the beginning of a round, she might try to escape and get a roll.

Transport rule.

1 TP ea gets a D@2 against planes only. No D against all ships.
1 TP ea gets a D@2 against planes only with planes and all ships attacking together.
                                No escape rolls. Unless just planes left from attacker.
1 TP ea gets a D@2 against planes attacking alone only against TP’s. Ea surviving TP
                                gets a escape roll after the attackers roll per combat round.
1 TP ea gets a D@0 against attacking ships only attacking TP’s. Ea surviving TP gets
                                a escape roll after the attackers roll per combat round.

2 ger subs attacking 1 dest and 2 TP’s.

RD 1
1 ger sub @5 FS rolls a 4    1 hit
1 ger sub @5  rolls a 7   1 miss

1 dest removed from board.

2 TP’s escape roll get a roll of   3,12     no escape

RD 2
2 ger subs attacking 2 TP’s

2 ger sub @5 FS rolls a 4,9    1  hit

1 TP removed from board.
1 TP escape roll gets a roll of  1        1 transport escapes.

Thats it. Don’t matter what kind of ship it is. Transport Escape roll is at the end of attackers combat.

Now the question is will you get more surviving TP’s getting escape roll before the attackers roll or after the attackers roll ?

3 dest attacking 3 TP’s

Before  attack for TP"s     16.66 % ea TP has for escape.

3 TP’s escape roll of 4,7,9     0 TP escapes
3 TP’s escape roll of 1,6,9     1 TP escapes
3 TP’s escape roll of 1,2,12   2 TP escapes
3 TP’s escape roll of 1,2,2     3 TP escapes

After attack rolls for TP’s    Ea dest has a 33% chance of a kill,

3 dest @4 roll a 6,10,12  0 hits   3 TP’s roll for escape.
3 dest @4 roll a 2,7,9     1 hit     2 TP’s roll for escape.
3 dest @4 roll a 1,3,12   2 hits   1 TP rolls for escape.

Which one of these options best % for transports to escape ? Before attack or after attack. You would think before attack.

Still think a First Strike sub should get a shot before only transports left roll for escape.

I will go with which ever one has the better escape %.

I changed the rule but may keep the old one with TP escape roll before combat.

I will decide on rule when and if you can come up with %s. I just want 2 numbers if possible.  :-D

@SS:

Transport rule.
Basic combat value and defense of Transport:
1 TP each gets a D@2 against attacking planes only. No Defense against all ships.

1 TP each gets a D@2 against planes only with planes and all ships attacking together.
[[i]No escape rolls. Unless just planes left from attacker.]  I don’t understand the meaning of this sentence. Sorry.

When attackers is against Transports without escort:
1 TP each gets a D@2 against planes attacking alone only against TP’s.
Each surviving TP gets a escape roll after the attackers roll per combat round.

1 TP each gets no Defense against attacking ships only attacking TP’s.
Each surviving TP gets a escape roll after the attackers roll per combat round.

I will look more into it. Is it the same rule as you played?
I have a doubt…

Which one of these options best % for transports to escape ? Before attack or after attack. You would think before attack.

Still think a First Strike sub should get a shot before only transports left roll for escape.
These two sentences seems to contradict.
I will go with which ever one has the better escape %.

If you use @1 on D12, you might goes straight from the start and get an AA roll realistic defense. For a simpler and straight rule.

No matter what is happening: TP get an evade roll @1 in the same phase as Sub elects to submerge or not.

During combat, if there is enemy’s plane attacking: all TPs have to roll @1 against enemy’s plane for defense.
Otherwise, no defense roll for TPs.

Repeat each combat round.

Now, even if all transports get both roll @1 to escape and @1 to kill a plane, the sum is only 2 out of 12.

I really feel in your system above, TPs can have their cake (@2 to defend vs planes) and eat it (@2 to escape) when enemy’s planes are present.

@SS:

I changed the rule but may keep the old one with TP escape roll before combat.

I will decide on rule when and if you can come up with %s. I just want 2 numbers if possible.  :-D

Am I wrong on these numbers about two @2 rolls for TPs?

This would be very unusual to get both capacity.
Even Subs have to decide: submerge or roll for defense or attack.

Please explains this too:

1 TP each gets a D@2 against planes only with planes and all ships attacking together.
[[i]No escape rolls. Unless just planes left from attacker.]  I don’t understand the meaning of this sentence. Sorry.

@Baron:

@SS:

Transport rule.
Basic combat value and defense of Transport:
1 TP each gets a D@2 against attacking planes only. No Defense against all ships.

1 TP each gets a D@2 against planes only with planes and all ships attacking together.
[[i]No escape rolls. Unless just planes left from attacker.]  I don’t understand the meaning of this sentence. Sorry.

If ships and planes are attacking transports only the transport only gets a defense shot at planes. If no planes or ships attacking together than the transport gets its escape roll.

When attackers is against Transports without escort:
1 TP each gets a D@2 against planes attacking alone only against TP’s.
Each surviving TP gets a escape roll after the attackers roll per combat round.

1 TP each gets no Defense against attacking ships only attacking TP’s.
Each surviving TP gets a escape roll after the attackers roll per combat round.

I will look more into it. Is it the same rule as you played?
I have a doubt…

Which one of these options best % for transports to escape ? Before attack or after attack. You would think before attack.

Still think a First Strike sub should get a shot before only transports left roll for escape.
These two sentences seems to contradict.
I will go with which ever one has the better escape %.

If you use @1 on D12, you might goes straight from the start and get an AA roll realistic defense. For a simpler and straight rule.

No matter what is happening: TP get an evade roll @1 in the same phase as Sub elects to submerge or not.

During combat, if there is enemy’s plane attacking: all TPs have to roll @1 against enemy’s plane for defense.
Otherwise, no defense roll for TPs.

Repeat each combat round.

---

Now, even if all transports get both roll @1 to escape and @1 to kill a plane, the sum is only 2 out of 12.

I really feel in your system above, TPs can have their cake (@2 to defend vs planes) and eat it (@2 to escape) when enemy’s planes are present.

@SS:

I changed the rule but may keep the old one with TP escape roll before combat.

I will decide on rule when and if you can come up with %s. I just want 2 numbers if possible.  :-D

Am I wrong on these numbers about two @2 rolls for TPs?

I was only looking for a couple of numbers for % on which option was better.

This would be very unusual to get both capacity.
Even Subs have to decide: submerge or roll for defense or attack.

Please explains this too:

1 TP each gets a D@2 against planes only with planes and all ships attacking together.
[[i]No escape rolls. Unless just planes left from attacker.]  I don’t understand the meaning of this sentence. Sorry.

Explained above.

Rule now.

1…Ships only attacking lone transports. - After all attackers combat rolls per round, ea TP gets a escape roll @2
2. Planes only attacking lone transports - After all attackers combat rolls per round, all TP"s roll a @2 against a plane
or the casualty TP’s get there D@2 shot at a plane and any surviving TP"s that decides not to defend against the planes can get a escape roll@2.

3. When ships and planes attacking lone transports, All TP’s get a D@2 against planes only. No escape roll.
4. When ships and planes attacking escorted transports, All TP’s get a D@2 against planes only. No escape roll.

Rule 2 maybe up for debate.

This is it. Final decision.

Ok, I see it more clearly.

After all attacker’s rolls are done, is it the moment you make your TPs status?
If all escorting units are behind casualty lines, TPs may roll for evade, when allowed according to rule? Or, said otherwise, as long as at least 1 escorting unit is not hit, no evade.

About rule #2, from a few game play with this kind of rule, I’m pretty sure this kind of choice can drag down the combat and casualty process.

Why not use the rule of thumb of WWII The Expansion: when enemy’s plane are present, no escape roll? TPs are simply treated as combat unit each with 1 hit, since they get a defense roll.
So, both planes alone and planes+warships attacking are treated the same way: no escape roll, until all enemy’s plane are shooted down. So it becomes the last situation:

Last case, when only warships, then escape roll is allowed.

TPs rolling defensive AA along other escorting units, or making an escape roll give better odds simply because, even escorted at start  of combat round, all escort units can be casualties and allows TPs 1 more opportunity to roll. And it is simpler to apply while Subs get their attack and shot at TP, at least one time.

Yes Rule *2 was debatable. Did think about no escape when only planes attacking.

Whats another 5 mins in game for more die rolling.

New Rule 2 -  Planes only attacking lonely transports - After all attackers combat rolls per round, ea TP gets a D@2 roll against planes only. No escape.

Not so much about 5 minutes more or less.
More about micromanagement of all details.
Subs and DDs already special treatment 1 for 1 in your game, for instance.

Principles are good, it was to find the best way to apply them.

@SS:

Yes Rule *2 was debatable. Did think about no escape when only planes attacking.

Whats another 5 mins in game for more die rolling.

New Rule 2 -  Planes only attacking lonely transports - After all attackers combat rolls per round, ea TP gets a D@2 roll against planes only. No escape.

I believe it is wrapped up.

It is all about dice rolling for all alone TPs.
If TPs can roll to defend (vs aircraft) it is good and when TP can no more, then it rolls for escape.

@Baron:

@SS:

Yes Rule *2 was debatable. Did think about no escape when only planes attacking.

Whats another 5 mins in game for more die rolling.

New Rule 2 -  Planes only attacking lonely transports - After all attackers combat rolls per round, ea TP gets a D@2 roll against planes only. No escape.

I believe it is wrapped up.

It is all about dice rolling for all alone TPs.
If TPs can roll to defend (vs aircraft) it is good and when TP can no more, then it rolls for escape.

Correct. Thanks again.

W/o the math, what is the final unit attributes for transport?

@Imperious:

W/o the math, what is the final unit attributes for transport?

You mean
                        D12

Planes only attacking lone transports. All transports get a @2 at planes.  No escape.

Ships only attacking lone transports. All surviving transports get a roll of @2 after all attackers roll after each round of combat.

Ships and planes attacking transports with escorts. Transports only shoot at planes@2.

ok

@SS:

@Imperious:

W/o the math, what is the final unit attributes for transport?

You mean
                       D12

Planes only attacking lone transports. All transports get a @2 at planes.  No escape.

Ships only attacking lone transports. All surviving transports get a roll of @2 after all attackers roll after each round of combat.

Ships and planes attacking transports with escorts. Transports only shoot at planes@2.

Transport, always taken as last casualty, can only escape when alone and against warships only.

Otherwise, each get an AA roll against aircraft once per combat round, if any available.

Not to your taste IMO.