How can we add simple Vichy rules to Europe and/or Global 1940 2nd Edition?

The Chinese rules only work because a) they can be eliminated completely within a few turns with focused effort by Japan; and b) they are restricted both in unit selection and movement range.

Apply those rules to the French without the unit and movement restrictions and you’ll get a crazy powerful version of it which is way more than anybody would want to see. Imagine France getting a mech inf in FEQ and Syria every turn, which is what they can afford after all three territories in mainland Europe as well as FIC are gone. Or they could alternate turns building a mech inf one turn and a bomber the next, or any other combination thereof.

If you think the setup is unrealistic now, imagine games where by the end of round 6 there’s a group of four French bombers that can grow by 2 every three turns thereafter.

The proposed rule actually makes France significantly more powerful than Italy, which often finds itself pulling in less than the 8 income that France would be getting in most games.

@Charles:

I wanted was to allow France to build even after its capital is taken.

OK, I think we are on to something here. Every power that lost its capital, would establish a government in exile, as long they had any decent place to go. So, keep on building after your cap is gone makes sense, as long as you got income from free territories or colonies, or other players give you lend/lease.

But, and this is extremely important, the Rule must be mainstream and fit all playing powers. We cant have special rules to each country in the world. I figure the Chinese special rule should be an option to all powers that lost their capital. After all, China lost two capitals, first Peking, but then they moved the government to Bejing and lost that too, but that didn’t stop them fighting. If Moscow fell, woulntd they just move the government to Sibir and keep fighting ? And if London fell, wouldn’t they move to Canada ?

I say, if your capital is taken, you can still build infantry as long as you got income and free territories. This is true for any power.

Also, if your allies have access to your free territory, they let you buy artillery too, just like the Burma road etc.

You’d get into situations where losing a capital made a country stronger.

China’s “build anywhere” ability is crazy powerful. Without the severe limitations that come with it, it would dominate the game.

Just think of the difference alone the ability to build in a newly captured factory would make to the game. The Chinese have that, except there are no limits to the number of units they can build and it’s not limited to territories with factories.

And to take it one step further, try applying it to powers that make 50+ income rather than China’s meager teens. It’s absolutely game-breaking.

Here’s an example: The US captures Normandy on its combat move. At the end of the combat move, it places 25 infantry in Normandy.

Generally speaking, the evolution of A&A has been to make it more, not less, complicated. I’m all for this as I think it adds things to the game that people want. There’s a reason none of us are still playing 1984 MB rules. And if you look at house rules, a lot of the evolution can be traced to people experimenting with new ideas and seeing how they fit – Italy and China as separate players, dogfights, 2 hit battleships.

So in principle, I’m in favour of a Vichy France as long as it doesn’t tilt the balance too much, though I’m not sure how this could be achieved. Free french units can already prove useful in Africa and sometimes in the Indian Ocean without needing any help. So even though I’m not sure how it could be done, but my vote is behind anyone trying to come up with a good compromise that adds realism without bloating the game.

I will preface this post by saying the below is by no means a perfect idea, but is something I had thought about a while back also.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36528.0

I made that on the overwhelming feeling on these boards that the Axis have an advantage OOB, so certain things could obviously be changed, like letting Axis units enter Vichy territories for example. I didn’t want to change a lot from the game format, but also thought this added some flavor to adding Vichy, while still also making the Free French kind of playable still.

While it’s true that historically France was essentially a non factor in the war, we must remember that this game starts in 1940 BEFORE France was at war. I point this out only because not a single power at the time would have predicted such a swift French collapse and defeat, and were largely seen to be a formidable foe. This is a game after all, not a historical simulation where France HAS to be relegated to pointlessness. I’m just seeing the comments on here of people being worried about having to give Norway, Yugoslavia, Greece, and any other country on the map the same powers, but that’s unrealistic. All of those smaller countries generally WERE non-factors in the war, and no one was really worried about them. Obviously every nation contributed manpower and what not to help either side with the war efforts, but on a game scale like this, we really don’t need to worry about having exiled forces of these smaller nations shown. France is certainly different in that aspect in my opinion at least.

Point being, I agree Charles de Gaulle, this is certainly a house rule worthy to be looked at!

Just a few historical notes:

@Narvik:

After all, China lost two capitals, first Peking, but then they moved the government to Bejing and lost that too, but that didn’t stop them fighting.

Peking and Beijling are the same. But otherwise, the Chinese were indeed quite flexible about which city was their capital at any given time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_capitals_of_China

@Chris_Henry:

While it’s true that historically France was essentially a non factor in the war, we must remember that this game starts in 1940 BEFORE France was at war.

The game starts with the Netherlands and Belgium under German control, but France still free. Because the 1940 German operation known as Fall Gelb attacked all three countries (and Luxembourg) simultaneously, and France had already declared war on Germany in 1939, France was definitely at war at the point in time depicted by the start of the game. Also, by the time the Germans had taken Belgium, they also held northern France. I’d say that the game starts in late May, 1940, before the fall of Paris but with France already in deep trouble and on the verge of military collapse.

@Herr:

@Chris_Henry:

While it’s true that historically France was essentially a non factor in the war, we must remember that this game starts in 1940 BEFORE France was at war.

The game starts with the Netherlands and Belgium under German control, but France still free. Because the 1940 German operation known as Fall Gelb attacked all three countries (and Luxembourg) simultaneously, and France had already declared war on Germany in 1939, France was definitely at war at the point in time depicted by the start of the game. Also, by the time the Germans had taken Belgium, they also held northern France. I’d say that the game starts in late May, 1940, before the fall of Paris but with France already in deep trouble and on the verge of military collapse.

True. I guess I should have clarified this in game terms again, and I certainly did not mean to say before they were at war, since they had been at war since 1939, poor word choice, and not at all what I meant, sorry for the confusion/misleading quote. What I had meant was before they had been taken out entirely. I’ve studied WWII history a bunch, so I am certainly aware of the timing of the low countries falling with the attack of France! �  :-)

Based on the map given, it looks as though for gaming mechanics France has yet to be attacked. I’d assumed this was done for gaming simplicity, but you could very well be right in that perhaps the starting troop numbers are designed to help show that France was on the verge of defeat. I just read the rulebook preface, and it does state that the start of the game is supposed to be at Dunkirk, which of course would help to show that France was on the verge of collapse.

My post was on an assumption of French military strength being still largely intact, and had assumed a gaming mechanic of an un-invaded France as of yet, in a quasi-alternate history sense if you will.

Regardless, the point of the post still stands, in that the contributions of France in the war/game outweigh those of the smaller nations mentioned to the point where France is the first country to be looked at for adding house rules of this sort!

Charles,

As stated in a prior post, a Vichy France rule-set is included the G40 Balance Mod. It’s been played fairly extensively by players in the TripleA gaming lobby and in some league games. Reviews have generally been positive. The rules are detailed below (taken from Game Notes). If you’d like to play a game online sometime to try it out, just lemme know. :)

VICHY FRANCE RULE SET

The following rule-set simulates the circumstances and strategic consequences of the Franco-German Armistice, and is intended for play with the G40 Balance Mod.

Game Conditions for Franco-German Armistice

At the beginning of France’s turn, if the following conditions are met, the Franco-German Armistice will occur:

1. Axis must control both France and Normandy Bordeaux;
2. France must control Southern France; and
3. There must be no non-French, Allied units in Southern France.

Game Consequences of Franco-German Armistice

French Territorial Control: At the beginning of France’s first turn in which Armistice conditions are met, all originally French territories not already under Axis control immediately change ownership to Pro-Axis Neutrals, except: (1) French Equatorial Africa; (2) New Hebrides; (2) any French territories containing non-French allied units.

With the exception of Southern France (see discussion of “Zone Libere” below), Vichy French territory works the same way as other Pro-Axis Neutral territory–i.e., an Axis player may capture Vichy French territory and commandeer its forces by moving a land unit into the territory during the non-combat phase of his turn.

Fly-over restrictions applicable to other Neutral territories do not apply to Vichy French territory.

Fleet at Toulon: In addition to the change in French territorial control, the Armistice changes control of the the French fleet in sz 93, from French to Pro-Axis neutral. The Vichy French fleet maintains a strictly defensive posture. It may not be moved. It may not be captured by the Axis. The fleet is immediately destroyed if any power, other than the Free French, occupies Southern France

“Zone Libre”: Any Axis occupation of Southern France following the Armistice results in a disbandment of all Vichy French forces and a scuttling of the Vichy French fleet in sz 93. The “Zone Libre” army and fleet will revert back to Free-French control if either: (1) France is liberated by the Allies; or (2) Free-French land forces enter Southern France during the combat-movement phase of France’s turn.

Armistice’s Effect on National Objectives: Following the armistice, Southern France is considered Axis-controlled for purposes of Italy’s “Roman Empire” objective. Otherwise, the Vichy France arrangement has no impact on National Objectives. Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco must still be directly occupied by Germany or Italy to achieve Italy’s “North Africa” objective. Japanese occupation of French Indo China still negates Japan’s “Trade With America” objective.

Liberation of France: The Allied liberation of France effectively terminates the Armistice. Any territory and forces still under Vichy French control (including any surviving fleet in sz 93) revert back to Free French control.