During WWI and WWII, does Allies Democracies were as GOOD as they say?

As the only one I know of qualified to speak to the Russian mindset (I was born in the Ukraine, a conquered nation under the Russian hegemony you called the Iron Curtain) I’d have to say this:

Russia has a long history of being invaded by Europeans and Scandinavians and no, I don’t consider them the same thing.  Thus, at the end of World War 2, the Russians refused to give up their border territories.  This way, should they be invaded again, they could scortch the earth without damaging their own lands and allow invaders to peter out while still travelling towards Russia - much as they did against Napoleon and Hitler, but to someone else’s crops instead of their own!

I believe, if you look at their actions in this light, they will seem a bit less cruel and a bit more human.  I think much of the Cold War was a misunderstanding of how America and Russia play at war.  Americans, as you know, love to “liberate” countries and make them carbon copies of the United States.  At least, that’s how we were taught in school!

To the topic at hand.

I believe the Western Allies, specifically France and England, were the “bad guys” in World War 2.

As we know from history, a terrorist organization attempted to overthrow the government of Austria-Hungary.  Russia decided to try and take advantage of the situation and invade Austria-Hungary and Turkey (they often tried to gain access to the Black Sea and the ports leading out to the Med, this is why the Crimean War happened!)  Germany, seeing their bestest buddies being invaded by the mean old Russians, declared war on Russia.

This was eventually followed up by France and England declaring war on Germany and Austria-Hungary (but the Hondurans had to declare first, and I swear, to see the Kaiser’s face when he was told Honduras went to war with Germany and the utter giggling fit that must have ensued would have been classic to watch!  I snicker a little at the thought!)

So we already have France and England being the aggressors.

Germany later crushed Russia so hard there was a revolution at home and Russia surrendered.  Did Germany abuse them further?  No.  They took the surrender, kept what they had taken in legitimate warfare, and let the Russians go home in peace (and pieces.)

About this time the US was finally getting into the war.  Perhaps the only allied nation to do so for a legitimate reason, not that they were ever exactly NEUTRAL in world events.  So France and England get fresh faces, less jaded and experienced troops that could be used to revive a war effort that, had the US stayed the frak out of, probably would have ground to a halt where it was.

France, England and the US force a capitulation in Germany and Austria-Hungary.  Not because they could not fight anymore, but because they did not want to fight anymore.  The treaty of Versailles was drafted and it was NOTHING like what the Axis powers were expecting!  But, because they already surrendered, they went with it - trench warfare was truly hell, or so the saying goes.

The treaty was so horrible, so nasty, that the allies felt guilty and when Germany started to bust at the seams and reclaim land stolen for Poland, Slovakia, France, etc, they just let them go.  You understand, the germans had 3 paydays every day, and after each one the men would RUN home and give the wife the money so she could buy whatever she could before inflation made the currency worthless.  In such a situation, how can a people survive if not by rebelling against the unfair nature of their situation?  Even having landed gentry was not as bad as this!

Now, I am not saying Hitler was a good man, that the National Socialists were good men, that the death camps never existed or that they should have.  No.  There were evils and atrocities, and there were good soldiers too, like ones saving kittens from burning homes.  What I am going to say is this, had England and France stayed out of an internal matter in the Austrian-Hungarian empire, there would have been no death camps, no atrocities, hell, no trench warfare in WWI (no Argonne Forest either!) and no NAZIs and thus no WWII.

So in my book, France and England, because they caused both WWI and WWII, are clearly the bad guys.

Much of my mindset is jaded by my heritage and schooling, and much of your statements are likewise jaded by your heritage and your schooling.  It’s the nature of the beast.  So if you do not agree, then you do not agree, and if you do agree, great!

@Baron:

Another point in the documentary was Poland refuse to discuss and make any deal with Hitler about a road and access to Easter Prussia via Danzig.

In Munich, in late September 1938, Hitler offered a deal to France and Britain which said essentially, “Give me the Sudentenland and I’ll leave the rest of Czechoslovakia alone”.  They gave it to him – and in so doing, they gave Germany a convenient position inside of Czechoslovakia’s natural mountain defenses.  In mid-March 1939, Germany used the Sudetenland as a springboard to take over the rest of Czechkoslovakia, despite Hitler’s assurances at Munich that he had no further territorial ambitions.  Given how quickly Hitler had broken his word about Czechoslovakia, why on earth would Poland have had any reason to trust him if he offered Poland a deal which essentially said, “Give me a land corridor to Danzig and I’ll leave the rest of Poland alone”?

@CWO:

@Baron:

Another point in the documentary was Poland refuse to discuss and make any deal with Hitler about a road and access to Easter Prussia via Danzig.

In Munich, in late September 1938, Hitler offered a deal to France and Britain which said essentially, “Give me the Sudentenland and I’ll leave the rest of Czechoslovakia alone”.  They gave it to him – and in so doing, they gave Germany a convenient position inside of Czechoslovakia’s natural mountain defenses.  In mid-March 1939, Germany used the Sudetenland as a springboard to take over the rest of Czechkoslovakia, despite Hitler’s assurances at Munich that he had no further territorial ambitions.  Given how quickly Hitler had broken his word about Czechoslovakia, why on earth would Poland have had any reason to trust him if he offered Poland a deal which essentially said, “Give me a land corridor to Danzig and I’ll leave the rest of Poland alone”?

I remember seeing images of the Polish charging the Panzers with mounted grenadiers.  It always sort of inspired me.

With men like that, who needs negotiation?

Men like that you need shovels.

@Cmdr:

So in my book, France and England, because they caused both WWI and WWII, are clearly the bad guys.Â

So you tell me that the Serbian terrorists that killed the Austrian Arch-duke and triggered the war, were not supported by the russian officers and mondene elite ? And you tell me that France and Britain joined WW I before Russia ? Then how can you explain that russian forces cut deep into Germany and Austria long before France and Britain startet their mobilization ?

Being a Ukrainean, how do you excuse the russians starving millions of ukraineans to death during the 1920 ? Just for fun ?

And was it not Stalin and Russia that made WWII possible by making the non-aggression pact with Hitler so he could attack Poland ? So russians are the good guys now, eh ? Forgotten are the GULag camps in Sibir ? And the western democracies with its evil freedom are now the bad guys ? Yes, that makes sence, evil USA always start all the wars. We trigger some wars on foreign territories, and then we sell them weapons and stuff and get real rich. We are bad capitalist pigs, man. Blame on U$a

I didn’t include or exclude Russia, did I?

Ah, it was in the other thread.

Yes, Russia declared war to attack the Austrian-Hungarians when they thought they had a chance to destabilize the local government. 
Germany, in response (and being the loyal allies and good people they were) declared war on Russia so that their friends and allies could put down the terrorist revolt in their nation.  They succeeded and Russia was forced to not only capitulate, but the government changed from a Monarchy to one of Socialism.

However, the Serbians asked Russia for help.  France and England just decided to declare war when they thought THEY could grab some extra land from Germany.  Germany was clearly and firmly entrenched as the good guys in WWI - even if they were the first to use chemical weapons (I believe that if you are in war, there is no action you can take that kills hostile forces that is illegal.  Only when they are no longer hostile or not involved in the war like POWs or civilians, do you run into unethical behavior.)

Regardless of any underlying motives, it’s important to stick to the facts. It was Germany that declared war on France on August 3, 1914. Not the other way around.
On August 2, Germany had demanded free passage of its troops through Belgium in a confidential communication to the government of that country. Belgium refused to comply with that demand, and the Germans invaded the next day.
Britain did indeed declare war on Germany, on August 4, in response to the German attack on Belgium and after a British “cease and desist” ultimatum had expired.

Maybe the website I got the French DOW on was wrong, or just listed the allied ones - since many times they reciprocate a dow even though they don’t need too…

Anyway, Germany was perfectly happy sitting there and doing nothing before Russia decided to stick it’s big fat nose in things, then France and England decided to fight Germany (DOW or not, they did cut off transport and trade with them, so in effect, they did declare on Germany even if it wasn’t on paper)

It’s clear that the side that supported the rebellion against the law abiding, peace loving states of Germany and Austria-Hungary are the aggressors, Germany and Austria-Hungary just defending themselves from unwarranted and unwanted attack. :P

And Belgiums a country?  Sheesh, I thought it was a truck stop on route to Paris!  Next you’ll be telling me Rhode Island is a state in the United States of America and not a gas station with delusions of grandeur!