Italy a bad design

@Imperious:

Germany now has V3!

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry) haha!

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 wirh 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

UK has just a DD and AP on west UK. it cant bring anything.

On top of that UK defends with just 11 Inf and 3 fighters.

PLUS!!! Germany now may have 2 subs to go with her DD, CA and BB.

and it still has 4 AP in back of that in Baltic.

What do you do now?  You go with that Italy attack?

HA! I take UK, its mine finally.  TO stop this you must attack my fleet of: 2 subs, 1 battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer.

You got a DD and 3 planes to do this…. result you MUST stop the attack on Italy. You should attack this fleet with 1 CV, 2 DD, 4 planes and exchange our fleets.

I saved Italy and really made it a required play. I suppose you might bring the ships to the east coast and let me kill it with all my planes, saving part of my fleet.

I am a genious!

You’re a genious who can’t spell genius.

@Imperious:

Germany now has V3!

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry) haha!

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 wirh 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

UK has just a DD and AP on west UK. it cant bring anything.

On top of that UK defends with just 11 Inf and 3 fighters.

PLUS!!! Germany now may have 2 subs to go with her DD, CA and BB.

and it still has 4 AP in back of that in Baltic.

What do you do now?  You go with that Italy attack?

HA! I take UK, its mine finally.  TO stop this you must attack my fleet of: 2 subs, 1 battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer.

You got a DD and 3 planes to do this…. result you MUST stop the attack on Italy. You should attack this fleet with 1 CV, 2 DD, 4 planes and exchange our fleets.

I saved Italy and really made it a required play. I suppose you might bring the ships to the east coast and let me kill it with all my planes, saving part of my fleet.

I am a genious!

Where are you putting those transports? Back in the Baltic? If you are putting them in SZ 113 with the rest of your navy in 112 then as the UK I send 1 fighter to SZ 113 to sink all 4 of your transports, move my carrier to SZ 110 to land the fighter.  Britian saved, but so is italian fleet, but now 28 IPC of German transports are sitting at the bottom of the baltic.  If you put them in 114 then they can’t make it to London and I attack the Italian navy.

@Imperious:

Germany now has V3!

Actually, I think this version is a very risky/weak one:

Attack SZ106 - good one, no real risk involved

Attack SZ110 - good one, enough subs to soak up the return fire of the expected two round of shooting

Attack SZ111 - risky, not enough firepower for a reliable one round kill and not enough subs to take the damage of two round of return fire … critical air units might be lost

Attack SZ 112 - risky, enough firepower for a reliable one round kill but every return hit will either weaken the Kriegsmarine or destroy a critical air unit (there’s a very real 25% chance of even two return hits!)

The big problem with these opening moves is that the UK has the opportunity to consider the results of these battles and then plan accordingly … which is very bad from a German point of view in this case. Lose too many aircraft (don’t forget the AA that will also add to the casualties) and the UK player will simply buy a stack of infantry, place a small destroyer cordon around the capital to prevent shore bombardement and still take out the Italian Navy. If the Kriegsmarine takes too many hits, the UK can take them out with not too many problems and block any possible invasion … you just traded the Italian for the German Navy and probably moved the first amphibious landings in Europe forward by a few turns.

… and if you somehow manage to play a perfect first round with no critical losses, the UK can still go full-defense and lose nothing critical.

… and there’s also the option of only going for the transport as a previous poster pointed out.

8-)

(PS: Long-time player, incidental lurker and first-time poster … Hi Guys!)

Almost forgot …

So far my favourite opening for Germany has been going for a strong combat oriented Kriegsmarine to put an economic blocade around the UK and delay the landings in Europe by threatening with a major battle in the atlantic. Any Allied IPC’s spent on combat units aren’t used for landings … and there’s always the option of moving back and help with minor landings in the USSR.

Some U-boats at the Normandy coast can also help … range 3 threatens a large portion of the Atlantic and makes it very hard to get close to them without being attacked first.

8-)

Actually they found a flaw in my plans. Baltic transports are prone to planes reaching.

But alas i have a new solution to still do the job!

V4 ( vengeance weapon #4)

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry)

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 with 1 BB, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

IN NCM the CA blocks the CV and DD from Gibraltar in SZ 110 and sits with 1-2 subs.

Germans have 2 fleets:

110 they got 1 CA and 1-2 SS
112 they got 1 BB, 1 DD, 1-2 SS, and 4 AP

UK must kill 112 with 3 fighters or face its downfall.

Problem is Germany can lose that fleet in the exchange and everybody dies.

@Imperious:

Actually they found a flaw in my plans. Baltic transports are prone to planes reaching.

But alas i have a new solution to still do the job!

V4 ( vengeance weapon #4)

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry)

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 with 1 BB, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

IN NCM the CA blocks the CV and DD from Gibraltar in SZ 110 and sits with 1-2 subs.

Germans have 2 fleets:

110 they got 1 CA and 1-2 SS
112 they got 1 BB, 1 DD, 1-2 SS, and 4 AP

UK must kill 112 with 3 fighters or face its downfall.

Problem is Germany can lose that fleet in the exchange and everybody dies.

They can also attack with the tac and send the DD against the CC which could kill that fleet and allow the carrier to pick up the tac. Take the tac as a casualty first so you don’t endanger the carrier.

Or, just wait for Japan to take Egypt around turn 5, land 20+ planes and secure the med as well!

@Imperious:

Actually they found a flaw in my plans. Baltic transports are prone to planes reaching.

But alas i have a new solution to still do the job!

V4 ( vengeance weapon #4)

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry)

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 with 1 BB, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

IN NCM the CA blocks the CV and DD from Gibraltar in SZ 110 and sits with 1-2 subs.

Germans have 2 fleets:

110 they got 1 CA and 1-2 SS
112 they got 1 BB, 1 DD, 1-2 SS, and 4 AP

UK must kill 112 with 3 fighters or face its downfall.

Problem is Germany can lose that fleet in the exchange and everybody dies.

Great idea, IL!  That CA block is something I never would have thought of (too used to using brute force vs. maneuvering to get the job done)!  Here’s a nice addition…  How about instead of stacking all those APs in with the BB and DD, you put them in SZ 113 instead!  They can still reach SZ 110 (move 3 spaces from SZ 113), but are out of reach of UK fighters!

In fact, IF the UK goes after your BB/DD/SS or CA/SS stack, they’re just weakening their airforce they could be using for defense!  Your own airforce is still largely intact and can easily blow up any little blocking fleet the UK tries to put up with the CV in SZ 110.

Hell, why not go all out and build 4 transports G1 and make sure you take out the UK Round 2!  I think as long as you manage to not get diced too badly in France, UK SZs, and the UK itself, Germany stands ready to take the UK with minimal losses on G2!

IL, with that CA block you may have singlehandedly broken AAE40.  I’m going to post it up as a separate thread now.  I’m hope you’re proud.  :-D

@SgtBlitz:

@Imperious:

Actually they found a flaw in my plans. Baltic transports are prone to planes reaching.

But alas i have a new solution to still do the job!

V4 ( vengeance weapon #4)

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry)

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 with 1 BB, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

IN NCM the CA blocks the CV and DD from Gibraltar in SZ 110 and sits with 1-2 subs.

Germans have 2 fleets:

110 they got 1 CA and 1-2 SS
112 they got 1 BB, 1 DD, 1-2 SS, and 4 AP

UK must kill 112 with 3 fighters or face its downfall.

Problem is Germany can lose that fleet in the exchange and everybody dies.

Great idea, IL!  That CA block is something I never would have thought of (too used to using brute force vs. maneuvering to get the job done)!  Here’s a nice addition…  How about instead of stacking all those APs in with the BB and DD, you put them in SZ 113 instead!  They can still reach SZ 110 (move 3 spaces from SZ 113), but are out of reach of UK fighters!

In fact, IF the UK goes after your BB/DD/SS or CA/SS stack, they’re just weakening their airforce they could be using for defense!  Your own airforce is still largely intact and can easily blow up any little blocking fleet the UK tries to put up with the CV in SZ 110.

Hell, why not go all out and build 4 transports G1 and make sure you take out the UK Round 2!  I think as long as you manage to not get diced too badly in France, UK SZs, and the UK itself, Germany stands ready to take the UK with minimal losses on G2!

IL, with that CA block you may have singlehandedly broken AAE40.  I’m going to post it up as a separate thread now.  I’m hope you’re proud.   :-D

Britis also do some maneuvering. DD in Z91 attacks the CC block, so that in theory the carrier can come into Z10 and pick up the  ftr that will be attacking the 4 undefended transports in the Baltic. The UK loses a DD and ftr(18 ipcs) for 4 transports(28 ipcs)

Can you NCM through a seazone in which a battle has taken place?

@RogertheShrubber:

Can you NCM through a seazone in which a battle has taken place?

Yes, if all enemy surface warships are gone.

@RogertheShrubber:

Can you NCM through a seazone in which a battle has taken place?

Yes, if it has no enemy surface warships

Well i didn’t break the game…But it would be most fun to do that!!

Vengeance plan #5 is into action!!!

Go V5!!

Builds ( back to 1 CV and 2 AP)

Attack SZ 106 with 1 sub ( UK has 1 DD) 2 vs. 2.
Attack SZ 109 1 fighter vs. 1 DD 3 vs. 2.
Attack SZ 110 2 subs, 1 tactical, 1 fighter, 1 bomber vs. 1 BB, 1 DD ( should win)
Attack SZ 111 2 subs, 1 tactical, 1 Fighter, vs. 1 BB, 1 CA ( should win)
Attack SZ 112 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 tactical, 1 Fighter vs 2 CA ( should win hit on BB)
One last sub blocks at SZ 104

Place all builds and 2 fighters on the CV in 112 with 3 AP. Now you got 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 CV and 2 fighters against 3 fighters attacking. I win in that.

UK cant attack my protected fleet the SS blocks in SZ 104, On top i got 2 subs so you can’t get to me.

Also i can now invade either side of UK!!!

You only got that DD and CV and the DD can attack the sub blocking in 104. and you might get the CV to SZ 110, but i can now invade from the other side in SZ 109!!

You needed an extra ship!

muhahahaha!!

now for the odds with 3 AP. 65.5% if the aa gun does not kill a plane, if it does then i go down to 42%.

Remember what I’m doing is to only make you stop from attacking the Italian fleet. This is my goal.

Benefits of V5 plan:

1)UK cant bring either 109 DD or 91 DD or the carrier from Gibraltar to kill my main fleet

2. UK stays stuck with 11 infantry and planes.

3. I stopped the attack on Italy. Possibly

4. UK must now commit 4 planes to defend UK and use the 2 DD’s just to kill the SS in 104 and possibly if your SZ 109 DD survives you can try for one sub in SZ 111.

5. Naval block in SZ 110 is no longer possible because planes cant sink the subs and your tactical bomber cant reach.

You like this new plan?

Regarding Sealion success rate:
65.6 % if AA gun hits

40.5 % if it does not

I went back to this purchase plan because in the long run it protects the German Baltic fleet. Most people understand the important CV buy for Germany in this regard.

He can still crash his 3 fighters into my main fleet: odds: 4/3/2/4/4 vs. 3/3  I don’t think so.

If i bought instead 1 DD and another AP ( giving me 4 total AP) sealion is guaranteed, but he will crash his 3 fighters into my BB, CA, and DD and i might lose all my transports

74.8 % i win this, but if the other 25% pops up i lose 4 transports and my fleet for 3 fighters.

And also i must win the other battles and not lose any planes. If i do this UK falls. thats the thing in a nutshell.

In Z109, there’s a 51% chance you lose your ftr

Meh, maybe one could block SZ 110 with the BB and 2 subs instead.  Yeah, that’s still not going to hold against 3 planes and a dd, if they’re suicidal.

I wonder if Germany on NCM sends the BB to SZ 104 along with a sub to block and sends the CA to SZ 110 along with a leftover sub or two.  Or, how about they send both BB, subs, and CA to SZ 104?  How would that work?  Or, is it more along the lines of as long as the UK player puts in a unit to fight at each blocking SZ, no matter how remote a chance there is for the attacker’s CV on its NCM to get through to the landing plane’s SZ, they can still legally put a fighter into SZ 113 with the intention of it landing on SZ 110?

Meh, I guess it could save Italy from the Taranto raid.

Unfortunately, IL, subs cannot block like they did in Revised and Classic.  Bummer.  :-(

This one guy who started an Axis win thread stated that he pulled Sealion off on G2 with 4 transports put into SZ 113.  I’m guessing the British player didn’t know that the CV could get a plane over there on it NCM.

@SgtBlitz:

Meh, maybe one could block SZ 110 with the BB and 2 subs instead.  Yeah, that’s still not going to hold against 3 planes and a dd, if they’re suicidal.

I wonder if Germany on NCM sends the BB to SZ 104 along with a sub to block and sends the CA to SZ 110 along with a leftover sub or two.  Or, how about they send both BB, subs, and CA to SZ 104?  How would that work?  Or, is it more along the lines of as long as the UK player puts in a unit to fight at each blocking SZ, no matter how remote a chance there is for the attacker’s CV on its NCM to get through to the landing plane’s SZ, they can still legally put a fighter into SZ 113 with the intention of it landing on SZ 110?

Meh, I guess it could save Italy from the Taranto raid.

Yeah, UK can just attack each blocking Sea Zone and then kill the transports in Z113. The DD hits Z104, a ftr hits Z110, another ftr hits Z113. 28 ipcs for 28 ipcs. If the ftr vs Z109 DD leves that DD alive, it can his one zone instead of a ftr, and so can the Canadian DD if it survives

Germany can block with the CA in 104.

The CV cant bring the planes to attack my main fleet.

The CV can only now block in SZ 110, but alas i can swing into SZ 109 and invade from that side because uk lost the DD’s attacking my CA and SS.

Either way i stopped the Italian attack and also kill the rest of the British ships.

That was my only goal.

I am going back to original plan. 1 CV and 2 AP build.

Attack SZ 106 with 1 sub ( UK has 1 DD) 2 vs. 2. 40.6% to 39.5%

Attack SZ 109 1 fighter vs. 1 DD 3 vs. 2. 48.9% to 26% ( both die at 25.1%)

Attack SZ 110 2 subs, 1 tactical, 1 fighter, 1 bomber vs. 1 BB, 1 DD ( should win)
99.5%

Attack SZ 111 2 subs, 1 tactical, 1 Fighter, vs. 1 BB, 1 CA ( should win)
85.7%

Attack SZ 112 1 BB, 1 SS, 1 tactical, 1 Fighter vs 2 CA ( should win hit on BB)
99%

One CA blocks at SZ 104

Place all builds and 2 fighters on the CV in 112 with 3 AP. Now you got 1 BB, 1 CV and 2 fighters against 3 fighters attacking. I win in that.
97% of the time.

Sealion can proceed unopposed.

Remember the point of these posts is to find the solution to prevent UK from attacking Italian fleet on UK1. I think this is it. Finally.

@calvinhobbesliker:

@SgtBlitz:

Meh, maybe one could block SZ 110 with the BB and 2 subs instead.  Yeah, that’s still not going to hold against 3 planes and a dd, if they’re suicidal.

I wonder if Germany on NCM sends the BB to SZ 104 along with a sub to block and sends the CA to SZ 110 along with a leftover sub or two.  Or, how about they send both BB, subs, and CA to SZ 104?  How would that work?  Or, is it more along the lines of as long as the UK player puts in a unit to fight at each blocking SZ, no matter how remote a chance there is for the attacker’s CV on its NCM to get through to the landing plane’s SZ, they can still legally put a fighter into SZ 113 with the intention of it landing on SZ 110?

Meh, I guess it could save Italy from the Taranto raid.

Yeah, UK can just attack each blocking Sea Zone and then kill the transports in Z113. The DD hits Z104, a ftr hits Z110, another ftr hits Z113. 28 ipcs for 28 ipcs. If the ftr vs Z109 DD leves that DD alive, it can his one zone instead of a ftr, and so can the Canadian DD if it survives

Well, at least we’re getting to equal numbers of IPCs being lost here.  Looks like the only way of realistically pulling Sealion off on G2 is with the 1 CV 2 TRN buy, but with only 6 land units going in against 11 + 3 planes, it doesn’t look good.  Pretty much only way of pulling it off is to strafe the UK G1 to get rid of its airforce with enormous casaulties, then its 6 land units + a few surviving planes vs. 9 inf and 1 TAC.  Still close odds.