Italy a bad design

[Imperious Leader]

UK has 3 fighters in London, you only have one 4.  If those fighters are defending the sea on the CV, then the BB/CA bombardment cannot happen.

Well no.

UK does have 3 fighters, Germany has 3 tactical bombers at 4, 4 fighters at 3 and one bomber at 4, plus 3 tanks and 3 infantry.

Thats was the old system. The improvement is this:

Germany now builds one DD and 3 AP. Now they got 4 tanks and 4 infantry.

This forces uk to attack the German fleet at SZ 112 which is 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 DD and uk has 1 CV, 1 DD and 4 planes. It must destroy the fleet and keep at least one ship to block the transports.

If it still goes for Italy navy, and brings the CV , DD and tactical to attack Italian fleet, then it has no block and Germany will take the Island. If it however, brings the DD and 3 fighters to attack the 3 German ships and does not win the battle resulting in UK keeping the DD to block ( which means the fighters are sacrificed), it can still stop the German transports in the Baltic with a block.

However the attack against the Italian fleet is now just a CV, DD and 2 planes: 4,3, and 2. This attack will fail.

[BJCard]

Fair enough

[BJCard]

IL- in the situation that Germany buys 1 DD, 3 AP,-  Where do the tanks come from to attack the UK with?  You still take Paris, right?

[gamerman01]

@BJCard:

IL- in the situation that Germany buys 1 DD, 3 AP,-  Where do the tanks come from to attack the UK with?  You still take Paris, right?

Well, there’s one in Poland and one in Slovakia.

[Imperious Leader]

Where do the tanks come from to attack the UK with?  You still take Paris, right?

4 of them stay in west Germany and rest goto Paris.

And yes Paris falls.

I prefer the CV and 2 AP build actually , so just 3 tanks which are out of reach of Paris anyway

[JamesAleman]

Food for thought. I just read 9 pages of this forum, gave up and jumped to the end. Forgive me if this is proposed already. (Europe designed strategy, maybe Global too.)

Germany can help Italy and maybe secure Egypt on turn 2. Here is How:
G1: use air force and subs to hit UK ships as needed. Make sure they all land in N. Italy do battles that will not cost planes. (This may hurt Germany, but you argue for Italy in Africa, here is the solution at a heavy cost.) 8 air units available I believe.

UK1:  moves to Egypt maybe 1 ftr, 1 armor, 3 inf, 1 art.

I1: Italy take Alexandra with everything including the kitchen sink. This means staging air units in Tobruk if needed. See below.

G2: Fly air force over sea zones: 97, 99 ,98 ,Egypt-attack,land in Alexandra. Fight one combat round. Roll 3 Tactical fighters, 4 fighters, 1 Bomber: get 4-5 hits. Lose 2-3 planes. Decide if you want another round or if staged Italy can finish Egypt. If factory Egypt, go round 2 hit 3 times lose 1-2 planes.

UK2: maybe builds 3 units if factory there.

I2: Capture Eygpt. Build or Capture a Factory.

I3: Attack Trans-Jordan, take, move mechanized infantry or tank to Iraq non combat, build factory turn 4. Ignore Africa.  Move to Persia, build factory. Help Germany in Russia, no need for a fleet.

Done. Maybe Italy doesn’t have a nice shiny fleet, but with Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Syria, Greece, South France, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Persia and Caucasus, they will collect 27IPCs +5 NO minus convoys, have 2-3 minor factories in Iraq,Persia,Eygpt and create a southern front on Russia.

Is that Broken? Maybe so, if it takes too long to realize this tactic.

How does it hurt Germany to have an air force that must then fly to N. Italy turn 3 minus 3-5 planes.

Did that make Italy viable for 30-50 IPCs of German starting units?

You decide.

[Imperious Leader]

Germany now has V3!

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry) haha!

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 wirh 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

UK has just a DD and AP on west UK. it cant bring anything.

On top of that UK defends with just 11 Inf and 3 fighters.

PLUS!!! Germany now may have 2 subs to go with her DD, CA and BB.

and it still has 4 AP in back of that in Baltic.

What do you do now?  You go with that Italy attack?

HA! I take UK, its mine finally.  TO stop this you must attack my fleet of: 2 subs, 1 battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer.

You got a DD and 3 planes to do this…. result you MUST stop the attack on Italy. You should attack this fleet with 1 CV, 2 DD, 4 planes and exchange our fleets.

I saved Italy and really made it a required play. I suppose you might bring the ships to the east coast and let me kill it with all my planes, saving part of my fleet.

I am a genious!

[Plasticdeathbydice]

@JamesAleman:

Food for thought. I just read 9 pages of this forum, gave up and jumped to the end.

and we are still going at it….this really needs to be cleaned up…

[JamesAleman]

@Imperious:

Germany now has V3!

I am a genious!

Maybe so, consider this:

If you do that, you did not go Russia first on turn 1…UK first is nice…but doomed, you need 8 out of 11 victory cities in Europe or 14 out of 19 in global. This means Russia must fall for the 8th or 14th city. I believe U.S. will be able to secure Rome, Paris, or London long term. Thus preventing the 14th city should Moscow fall. UK can ignore the Italian fleet and respond to the German fleet. Now you are not likely to engage Russia turn 1. Which may be the way to go.

[gamerman01]

@Imperious:

Germany now has V3!

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry) haha!

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 wirh 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

UK has just a DD and AP on west UK. it cant bring anything.

On top of that UK defends with just 11 Inf and 3 fighters.

PLUS!!! Germany now may have 2 subs to go with her DD, CA and BB.

and it still has 4 AP in back of that in Baltic.

What do you do now?  You go with that Italy attack?

HA! I take UK, its mine finally.  TO stop this you must attack my fleet of: 2 subs, 1 battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer.

You got a DD and 3 planes to do this…. result you MUST stop the attack on Italy. You should attack this fleet with 1 CV, 2 DD, 4 planes and exchange our fleets.

I saved Italy and really made it a required play. I suppose you might bring the ships to the east coast and let me kill it with all my planes, saving part of my fleet.

I am a genious!

You’re a genious who can’t spell genius.

[cond1024]

@Imperious:

Germany now has V3!

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry) haha!

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 wirh 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

UK has just a DD and AP on west UK. it cant bring anything.

On top of that UK defends with just 11 Inf and 3 fighters.

PLUS!!! Germany now may have 2 subs to go with her DD, CA and BB.

and it still has 4 AP in back of that in Baltic.

What do you do now?  You go with that Italy attack?

HA! I take UK, its mine finally.  TO stop this you must attack my fleet of: 2 subs, 1 battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer.

You got a DD and 3 planes to do this…. result you MUST stop the attack on Italy. You should attack this fleet with 1 CV, 2 DD, 4 planes and exchange our fleets.

I saved Italy and really made it a required play. I suppose you might bring the ships to the east coast and let me kill it with all my planes, saving part of my fleet.

I am a genious!

Where are you putting those transports? Back in the Baltic? If you are putting them in SZ 113 with the rest of your navy in 112 then as the UK I send 1 fighter to SZ 113 to sink all 4 of your transports, move my carrier to SZ 110 to land the fighter.  Britian saved, but so is italian fleet, but now 28 IPC of German transports are sitting at the bottom of the baltic.  If you put them in 114 then they can’t make it to London and I attack the Italian navy.

[Guest]

@Plasticdeathbydice:

@JamesAleman:

Food for thought. I just read 9 pages of this forum, gave up and jumped to the end.

and we are still going at it….this really needs to be cleaned up…

AMEN……TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH

[Latro]

@Imperious:

Germany now has V3!

Actually, I think this version is a very risky/weak one:

Attack SZ106 - good one, no real risk involved

Attack SZ110 - good one, enough subs to soak up the return fire of the expected two round of shooting

Attack SZ111 - risky, not enough firepower for a reliable one round kill and not enough subs to take the damage of two round of return fire … critical air units might be lost

Attack SZ 112 - risky, enough firepower for a reliable one round kill but every return hit will either weaken the Kriegsmarine or destroy a critical air unit (there’s a very real 25% chance of even two return hits!)

The big problem with these opening moves is that the UK has the opportunity to consider the results of these battles and then plan accordingly … which is very bad from a German point of view in this case. Lose too many aircraft (don’t forget the AA that will also add to the casualties) and the UK player will simply buy a stack of infantry, place a small destroyer cordon around the capital to prevent shore bombardement and still take out the Italian Navy. If the Kriegsmarine takes too many hits, the UK can take them out with not too many problems and block any possible invasion … you just traded the Italian for the German Navy and probably moved the first amphibious landings in Europe forward by a few turns.

… and if you somehow manage to play a perfect first round with no critical losses, the UK can still go full-defense and lose nothing critical.

… and there’s also the option of only going for the transport as a previous poster pointed out.

8-)

(PS: Long-time player, incidental lurker and first-time poster … Hi Guys!)

[Latro]

Almost forgot …

So far my favourite opening for Germany has been going for a strong combat oriented Kriegsmarine to put an economic blocade around the UK and delay the landings in Europe by threatening with a major battle in the atlantic. Any Allied IPC’s spent on combat units aren’t used for landings … and there’s always the option of moving back and help with minor landings in the USSR.

Some U-boats at the Normandy coast can also help … range 3 threatens a large portion of the Atlantic and makes it very hard to get close to them without being attacked first.

8-)

[Imperious Leader]

Actually they found a flaw in my plans. Baltic transports are prone to planes reaching.

But alas i have a new solution to still do the job!

V4 ( vengeance weapon #4)

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry)

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 with 1 BB, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

IN NCM the CA blocks the CV and DD from Gibraltar in SZ 110 and sits with 1-2 subs.

Germans have 2 fleets:

110 they got 1 CA and 1-2 SS
112 they got 1 BB, 1 DD, 1-2 SS, and 4 AP

UK must kill 112 with 3 fighters or face its downfall.

Problem is Germany can lose that fleet in the exchange and everybody dies.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Imperious:

Actually they found a flaw in my plans. Baltic transports are prone to planes reaching.

But alas i have a new solution to still do the job!

V4 ( vengeance weapon #4)

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry)

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 with 1 BB, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

IN NCM the CA blocks the CV and DD from Gibraltar in SZ 110 and sits with 1-2 subs.

Germans have 2 fleets:

110 they got 1 CA and 1-2 SS
112 they got 1 BB, 1 DD, 1-2 SS, and 4 AP

UK must kill 112 with 3 fighters or face its downfall.

Problem is Germany can lose that fleet in the exchange and everybody dies.

They can also attack with the tac and send the DD against the CC which could kill that fleet and allow the carrier to pick up the tac. Take the tac as a casualty first so you don’t endanger the carrier.

[bugoo]

Or, just wait for Japan to take Egypt around turn 5, land 20+ planes and secure the med as well!

[SgtBlitz]

@Imperious:

Actually they found a flaw in my plans. Baltic transports are prone to planes reaching.

But alas i have a new solution to still do the job!

V4 ( vengeance weapon #4)

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry)

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 with 1 BB, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

IN NCM the CA blocks the CV and DD from Gibraltar in SZ 110 and sits with 1-2 subs.

Germans have 2 fleets:

110 they got 1 CA and 1-2 SS
112 they got 1 BB, 1 DD, 1-2 SS, and 4 AP

UK must kill 112 with 3 fighters or face its downfall.

Problem is Germany can lose that fleet in the exchange and everybody dies.

Great idea, IL!  That CA block is something I never would have thought of (too used to using brute force vs. maneuvering to get the job done)!  Here’s a nice addition…  How about instead of stacking all those APs in with the BB and DD, you put them in SZ 113 instead!  They can still reach SZ 110 (move 3 spaces from SZ 113), but are out of reach of UK fighters!

In fact, IF the UK goes after your BB/DD/SS or CA/SS stack, they’re just weakening their airforce they could be using for defense!  Your own airforce is still largely intact and can easily blow up any little blocking fleet the UK tries to put up with the CV in SZ 110.

Hell, why not go all out and build 4 transports G1 and make sure you take out the UK Round 2!  I think as long as you manage to not get diced too badly in France, UK SZs, and the UK itself, Germany stands ready to take the UK with minimal losses on G2!

IL, with that CA block you may have singlehandedly broken AAE40.  I’m going to post it up as a separate thread now.  I’m hope you’re proud.  :-D

[calvinhobbesliker]

@SgtBlitz:

@Imperious:

Actually they found a flaw in my plans. Baltic transports are prone to planes reaching.

But alas i have a new solution to still do the job!

V4 ( vengeance weapon #4)

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry)

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 with 1 BB, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

IN NCM the CA blocks the CV and DD from Gibraltar in SZ 110 and sits with 1-2 subs.

Germans have 2 fleets:

110 they got 1 CA and 1-2 SS
112 they got 1 BB, 1 DD, 1-2 SS, and 4 AP

UK must kill 112 with 3 fighters or face its downfall.

Problem is Germany can lose that fleet in the exchange and everybody dies.

Great idea, IL!  That CA block is something I never would have thought of (too used to using brute force vs. maneuvering to get the job done)!  Here’s a nice addition…  How about instead of stacking all those APs in with the BB and DD, you put them in SZ 113 instead!  They can still reach SZ 110 (move 3 spaces from SZ 113), but are out of reach of UK fighters!

In fact, IF the UK goes after your BB/DD/SS or CA/SS stack, they’re just weakening their airforce they could be using for defense!  Your own airforce is still largely intact and can easily blow up any little blocking fleet the UK tries to put up with the CV in SZ 110.

Hell, why not go all out and build 4 transports G1 and make sure you take out the UK Round 2!  I think as long as you manage to not get diced too badly in France, UK SZs, and the UK itself, Germany stands ready to take the UK with minimal losses on G2!

IL, with that CA block you may have singlehandedly broken AAE40.  I’m going to post it up as a separate thread now.  I’m hope you’re proud.   :-D

Britis also do some maneuvering. DD in Z91 attacks the CC block, so that in theory the carrier can come into Z10 and pick up the  ftr that will be attacking the 4 undefended transports in the Baltic. The UK loses a DD and ftr(18 ipcs) for 4 transports(28 ipcs)

[tloger]

Can you NCM through a seazone in which a battle has taken place?