What to do with Italy

A lot of Axis players do this, but I see it as a good development if I’m allies. Any left over French units could be annoying in the early rounds. You have to be sure you can counter France if they take it and get the bonus infantry.

Axis won’t get the +2. Just holding Normandy for 3 turns is 2 more infantry. Axis will need a larger force in France than otherwise to prevent Allies from getting a foothold because USA will be able land their planes in Normandy right off the bat. If you don’t contest the allied landing in Normandy, Allies will be able to trade for Southern France.

A combined Italian-German stack in Normandy is strategically preferable to a stack in France, provided you have the manpower.

If USA could concentrate all its resources on the Atlantic front it would be a different story. But dual victory conditions means that if USA invests enough to make Germany pay for taking Normandy, then they likely didn’t invest enough in the Pacific to stop Japan.

@Ichabod:

@PainState:

A lot of posters seemed stunned at this scenario, never scene it ever happen or even could happen. Now that I mulled it over last night and looked at the rules and so forth it is very obvious to me why no one has ever scene this scenario. Because the scenario makes no logical sense.

Italy DOW on Russia and moves in 2 tanks into Eastern Poland.
Russia is now at war with Italy and can DOW on Germany at the start of their next turn, turn 3.
Germany on Turn 3 does not DOW on Russia and just non combats into Eastern Poland.
Russia at the start of Turn 3 DOW on Germany and off we go.

There is no logical reason why Russia would not DOW on Germany at the start of Turn 3, none.

Heck you could argue that it makes no logical sense that Germany did not DOW on Russia at the start of G3 since Italy brought Russia into the war and Russia WILL DOW on Germany on R3.

Hi PainState,

From my perspective, if I was planning on doing a G3 Barbarossa AND I wanted to drive towards the south, then yes, it makes sense to not DOW. My stack will be together except for the minimum required mobile units and maybe 1 AAA in Poland so Russia doesn’t attack Poland to get their NO for occupying an Axis territory. But E. Poland will be real strong because the German air will be there and maybe bombers will also be in range of a raid on the Moscow factory. Also, 5 IPCs is more income than I’d probably get as Germany on the 1st turn.

There are a few disadvantages of course. 1, Russian blockers can’t be attacked. 2, the Scandinavian units are behind. But for me that’s ok, I just use them to lay siege anyways. I never expect to get Moscow on turn 6 anymore. I assume that the UK/Anzac and that lone French fighter are going to get to Moscow.Â

I say Germany always because Germany is your powerhouse as far as income, and the more income you can bring in for Germany the better chance you have of taking Russia since you can spend more, while I do like to bring an Italian Force into Russia this force is there to support the German force, take the first hits in counter attacks and keep my German units around much longer, Southern France also allows the Germans to build their own fleet to transport units to africa which can give you a big boost and can usually bring an Axis victory in the Med.

There are some extraordinary circumstances when Italy should own it such as when Russia is about to fall, and therefore Italy can make better use of the Ukraine factory (for the Middle East).  But in most games Germany should own it because they need to build infantry and artillery there to attack Russia.

In the games a played it seemed that Japan could help the European Axis more by getting in positon to have enough victory cities on their side of the map than really pushing towards Russia.  If Japan pushes to Russia then USA is free to keep spending in Europe.  Maybe I will give this a try though with the newer edition of rules.

Italy’s job is threefold:
1:  Keep the UK spending to crush Italy
2:  Assist in Russia
3:  Lure the US Fleet past Gib and into the Med

With that being said, the Italian Navy is important to protect, requiring a DD to be purchased in Round 1.  This will draw more UK attention to the Med, which gives Germany more breathing room to advance on Moscow.  Provided your fleet was not decimated in SZ97, ferry units into Yugo with the TT and at least 1 Armor, possibly 2.

Assisting with Russia being your second goal pretty much requires that Italy activates Bulgaria on Round 1 and Italy either reinforcing the German Flank in Romania on I2 or if there is no immediate threat, clearing out Greece before the Brits activate it.  If Italy purchases a Bomber on Round 2, it puts 2 Bombers and somewhere in the range of 6-8 Inf plus 2 Armor in range of Eastern Poland, or Bess.  You even have a shot to can open Western Ukraine at this point, or if Russia is really incompetent, Ukraine MAY be open via an Armor Blitz (provided 2 Armor went into Yugo on Round 1, and reinforced Romania on I2.)  In any case, Italy can stand to gain some IPC and really create problems on the German Southern Flank in Russia.

As for the last goal for Italy, you need to continue to engage the UK into the Med through the time the US enters the war.  Usually this requires naval investments, I prefer to try to get at least 1 DD in every round.  At some point you’ll need to redirect your Bombers back to Rome / Southern France.  You’re goal is to force the Allies to defend SZ91 and interrupt the US TT rotation.  You need to be very opportunistic here and wait for the Allies to expose TT as lightly defended.  This doesn’t always happen, but it is devastating when it does and you can fly 2-3 Bombers and a send a few SS to potentially sink the TT rotation and buy breathing room.  If this doesn’t look like it could happen, you just have to turtle up and encourage the US to land on Rome and not Normandy or S.France.  The whole goal being to keep the US fleet in the Med and out of reinforcement for multiple turns outside of the 3 units it can place on whatever complex it takes.

@Cow:

and let me guess axis won right? exactly italy makes 40 that is game.

Yep.  Italy really carried the game. They also got heavy bombers and they just started unloading on the UK London side. The UK spent most of the game fixing stuff that that Italy had bombed the turn before. Then they crossed over and did it to India and that allowed Japan an easy time taking it.

@kdfsjljklgjfg:

To be fair, I always like to hit NItaly once as Allies in order to knock that complex down to a minor and limit Italian ground troop production.

That is an excellent strategy.  I just recently started using it myself.  My gaming group, myself included, was always stuck with the notion that you didn’t attack a territory, especially an important one with an IC on it, unless you could hold it.  If the enemy takes it right back, we felt you just wasted your troops.  They thought I was crazy when I would take a territory with a Major IC on it but only have a little force left that was easily destroyed.  That is, until they realized that they could no longer produce 10 units.  Then they have to either spend 20 IPCs to restore the major or suffer with only 3 unit builds per turn from then on.  I have gotten away with it for a couple of games now while my opponents still shied away from it so I didn’t get any retribution from them.  I’m sure my next game will change that if they get the chance.