Italy a bad design

[almashir]

Well, I’ve only had a chance to play one game since I got Global, but the Italians didn’t have any problems.  The German player threw every ship, sub, and aircraft he possibly could against the Royal Navy.  When he was done, there was not a single British ship left in sea zones 109, 110, 111, or 112.  Of course, in the process this left him with not quite enough firepower to take France on turn one.  He tried again on turn 2 and failed.  The Italians actually ended up taking Paris on their turn 2, and the Germans took London on turn 2, at which point the Luftwaffe was down to 2 fighters, and the Germans had nothing but their starting forces on the Soviet border.  The British had to use their Gibraltar fleet to re-take the UK, leaving the Italians in a good position.

Meanwhile, the Japanese had run amok and wiped out every Chinese unit on the map, and cutting off the Burma Road.  This prodded the British to declare war on turn 2 to reopen the Burma road and push the Japanese back.  On turn 3, the Japanese wiped out the US fleet that had just moved to Hawaii.  That’s where we left it, because we ran out of time.

The point of all this is that the Italians were probably in the best shape of anyone (except maybe the US, which has the income to replace a fleet every turn).  Of course, I think the Italian player was probably the most skilled of all of us playing.

[Quark]

I just want to point out that even if Italy loses its initial fleet there is way to build it up again. Build an airbase on Sicily and you have a CV with unlimited capacity in SZ 95, using the scramble ability, and Italy can build up in good order. After an initial exchange where Germany retaliates in the Med I dont think it would take more than the 2 Italian and maybee 2 German Ftrs to make a strike against a small Italian fleet in SZ 95 a bad deal for Allies.

As an Italian player that lost the SC 95 on I1 I would save my 10 starting IPC and let Germany clear SC 95 on G2. If the French fleet is still around i has to be destroyed as well. By then there is not much of an allied naval presence left and the Italian SZ 97 can transport 2 inf to Sicily where you place your air base with 2 ftrs. Remaining IPC can be put into a sub, destroyer or transport as needed.

Germany can help out with additional ftrs as needed. Granted that this is a opportunity cost for Germany but it keeps the Med and African theater open and forces the allies to keep defences in the area.

Cheers

Quark

[oztea]

IL is right, the payoff in the Med runs the risk of losing london far to easily

And in my game it didnt matter….

Either italy is the only power in the med with boats on its 2nd to 5th turn with 2 Crusiers, 1 Destroyer and a Battleship or…

Italy is the only power in the med with boats on its 2nd to 5th turn with a cruiser and a destoyer

Killing the boats helps…yes. But doing it later is easier.

[bugoo]

I think the real question is, will London falling on turn 3 (I just can’t see it happening turn 2, it would require insanely good dice on G1 and G2) mean the end of the game?  Or will the red monster just start crushing the Germans at that point?

[BJCard]

@Imperious:

Kind of dumb to have UK not be able to declare war on Italy on its turn… Hell, it can declare war on Japan on any turn and Japan is half a world away!

UK can’t declare war on Japan. Again the axis player does this. Of course eventually its at war if Japan does nothing for 3 turns.

By the way IL, UK has 3 Fighters on UK, 12 Inf, (1 Original, 1 French, 1 from Canada, 9 bought), 1 Arm (from Canada) So that is 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/3/4/4/4 = 39, so yes, the loss of one German fighter makes it a pretty even battle.

OK UK starts with 2 infantry and 3 fighters, then UK brings the Inf from Canada and buys 9 more. But remember the Germans sub in SZ 109 most likely will remain and that destroyer and fighters will have to fight it. The sub can hit back too.

But lets assume the best. UK has according to you attacked the Italian fleet and did not block SZ 110. I have always maintained that by buying 9 INF and Bringing the fleet block that sealion is averted 100%.

UK has: 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/4/3 and one AA gun vs  SB 4,3, and 4,4,4,4,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,1,1,1

or 14 hits and 31 points against 14 hits and a total of 47, doing Low Luck UK kills 5 units, and Germany kills 7-8 units, leaving UK with 6-7 units and 17-19 points against Germany’s 9 units and a total of 27

On the next round Germany kills another 4+ units and UK kills 3. The balance is now UK either has just 1 infantry and 2 planes or just 2 planes. Germany is at 6 units ( tank, bomber, 4 fighters)

The rest is clear to anybody, UK falls. Italy brings the fighter to London and game over. Nobody can do anything to save it.

This is the result if UK does not block at SZ 110. AS i have maintained and proven many times over, If Germany buys 1 CV and 2 AP and commits to Sealion, and UK does not bring the carrier block with fighters and destroyer and does not buy 9 land units, UK will fall unless dice really go bad. This is a forced move sequence for a number of players and should not be modeled in the game. Italy should be neutral till its own turn.

56% of the time the attacker will win.  Basically you are doing a game deciding gamble on turn two.

I will take a 12% margin of victory offered on the second turn any day. The real problem is we should not have to be in this position if UK was restricted into attacking Italy and Italy was neutral till their own turn. Then and only then Germany could consider another buy because it does not need to foil the threat of losing the Italian navy.

Germany knows that if UK blocks with CV , DD and 2 fighters and buys 9 INF, that sealion is not possible, but it also knows that not buying a CV and 2 AP will cause UK to most likely destroy the Italian fleet on the west coast.

Now players don’t have this “thing” to deal with every-game. It is solved by the restriction on UK.

UK has 3 fighters in London, you only have one 4.  If those fighters are defending the sea on the CV, then the BB/CA bombardment cannot happen.

Secondly, the UK can attack Japan on ANY turn.  If the UK attacks Japan, the US is not brought into the war yet.

[Imperious Leader]

UK has 3 fighters in London, you only have one 4.  If those fighters are defending the sea on the CV, then the BB/CA bombardment cannot happen.

Well no.

UK does have 3 fighters, Germany has 3 tactical bombers at 4, 4 fighters at 3 and one bomber at 4, plus 3 tanks and 3 infantry.

Thats was the old system. The improvement is this:

Germany now builds one DD and 3 AP. Now they got 4 tanks and 4 infantry.

This forces uk to attack the German fleet at SZ 112 which is 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 DD and uk has 1 CV, 1 DD and 4 planes. It must destroy the fleet and keep at least one ship to block the transports.

If it still goes for Italy navy, and brings the CV , DD and tactical to attack Italian fleet, then it has no block and Germany will take the Island. If it however, brings the DD and 3 fighters to attack the 3 German ships and does not win the battle resulting in UK keeping the DD to block ( which means the fighters are sacrificed), it can still stop the German transports in the Baltic with a block.

However the attack against the Italian fleet is now just a CV, DD and 2 planes: 4,3, and 2. This attack will fail.

[BJCard]

Fair enough

[BJCard]

IL- in the situation that Germany buys 1 DD, 3 AP,-  Where do the tanks come from to attack the UK with?  You still take Paris, right?

[gamerman01]

@BJCard:

IL- in the situation that Germany buys 1 DD, 3 AP,-  Where do the tanks come from to attack the UK with?  You still take Paris, right?

Well, there’s one in Poland and one in Slovakia.

[Imperious Leader]

Where do the tanks come from to attack the UK with?  You still take Paris, right?

4 of them stay in west Germany and rest goto Paris.

And yes Paris falls.

I prefer the CV and 2 AP build actually , so just 3 tanks which are out of reach of Paris anyway

[JamesAleman]

Food for thought. I just read 9 pages of this forum, gave up and jumped to the end. Forgive me if this is proposed already. (Europe designed strategy, maybe Global too.)

Germany can help Italy and maybe secure Egypt on turn 2. Here is How:
G1: use air force and subs to hit UK ships as needed. Make sure they all land in N. Italy do battles that will not cost planes. (This may hurt Germany, but you argue for Italy in Africa, here is the solution at a heavy cost.) 8 air units available I believe.

UK1:  moves to Egypt maybe 1 ftr, 1 armor, 3 inf, 1 art.

I1: Italy take Alexandra with everything including the kitchen sink. This means staging air units in Tobruk if needed. See below.

G2: Fly air force over sea zones: 97, 99 ,98 ,Egypt-attack,land in Alexandra. Fight one combat round. Roll 3 Tactical fighters, 4 fighters, 1 Bomber: get 4-5 hits. Lose 2-3 planes. Decide if you want another round or if staged Italy can finish Egypt. If factory Egypt, go round 2 hit 3 times lose 1-2 planes.

UK2: maybe builds 3 units if factory there.

I2: Capture Eygpt. Build or Capture a Factory.

I3: Attack Trans-Jordan, take, move mechanized infantry or tank to Iraq non combat, build factory turn 4. Ignore Africa.  Move to Persia, build factory. Help Germany in Russia, no need for a fleet.

Done. Maybe Italy doesn’t have a nice shiny fleet, but with Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Syria, Greece, South France, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Persia and Caucasus, they will collect 27IPCs +5 NO minus convoys, have 2-3 minor factories in Iraq,Persia,Eygpt and create a southern front on Russia.

Is that Broken? Maybe so, if it takes too long to realize this tactic.

How does it hurt Germany to have an air force that must then fly to N. Italy turn 3 minus 3-5 planes.

Did that make Italy viable for 30-50 IPCs of German starting units?

You decide.

[Imperious Leader]

Germany now has V3!

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry) haha!

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 wirh 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

UK has just a DD and AP on west UK. it cant bring anything.

On top of that UK defends with just 11 Inf and 3 fighters.

PLUS!!! Germany now may have 2 subs to go with her DD, CA and BB.

and it still has 4 AP in back of that in Baltic.

What do you do now?  You go with that Italy attack?

HA! I take UK, its mine finally.  TO stop this you must attack my fleet of: 2 subs, 1 battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer.

You got a DD and 3 planes to do this…. result you MUST stop the attack on Italy. You should attack this fleet with 1 CV, 2 DD, 4 planes and exchange our fleets.

I saved Italy and really made it a required play. I suppose you might bring the ships to the east coast and let me kill it with all my planes, saving part of my fleet.

I am a genious!

[Plasticdeathbydice]

@JamesAleman:

Food for thought. I just read 9 pages of this forum, gave up and jumped to the end.

and we are still going at it….this really needs to be cleaned up…

[JamesAleman]

@Imperious:

Germany now has V3!

I am a genious!

Maybe so, consider this:

If you do that, you did not go Russia first on turn 1…UK first is nice…but doomed, you need 8 out of 11 victory cities in Europe or 14 out of 19 in global. This means Russia must fall for the 8th or 14th city. I believe U.S. will be able to secure Rome, Paris, or London long term. Thus preventing the 14th city should Moscow fall. UK can ignore the Italian fleet and respond to the German fleet. Now you are not likely to engage Russia turn 1. Which may be the way to go.

[gamerman01]

@Imperious:

Germany now has V3!

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry) haha!

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 wirh 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

UK has just a DD and AP on west UK. it cant bring anything.

On top of that UK defends with just 11 Inf and 3 fighters.

PLUS!!! Germany now may have 2 subs to go with her DD, CA and BB.

and it still has 4 AP in back of that in Baltic.

What do you do now?  You go with that Italy attack?

HA! I take UK, its mine finally.  TO stop this you must attack my fleet of: 2 subs, 1 battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer.

You got a DD and 3 planes to do this…. result you MUST stop the attack on Italy. You should attack this fleet with 1 CV, 2 DD, 4 planes and exchange our fleets.

I saved Italy and really made it a required play. I suppose you might bring the ships to the east coast and let me kill it with all my planes, saving part of my fleet.

I am a genious!

You’re a genious who can’t spell genius.

[cond1024]

@Imperious:

Germany now has V3!

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry) haha!

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 wirh 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

UK has just a DD and AP on west UK. it cant bring anything.

On top of that UK defends with just 11 Inf and 3 fighters.

PLUS!!! Germany now may have 2 subs to go with her DD, CA and BB.

and it still has 4 AP in back of that in Baltic.

What do you do now?  You go with that Italy attack?

HA! I take UK, its mine finally.  TO stop this you must attack my fleet of: 2 subs, 1 battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer.

You got a DD and 3 planes to do this…. result you MUST stop the attack on Italy. You should attack this fleet with 1 CV, 2 DD, 4 planes and exchange our fleets.

I saved Italy and really made it a required play. I suppose you might bring the ships to the east coast and let me kill it with all my planes, saving part of my fleet.

I am a genious!

Where are you putting those transports? Back in the Baltic? If you are putting them in SZ 113 with the rest of your navy in 112 then as the UK I send 1 fighter to SZ 113 to sink all 4 of your transports, move my carrier to SZ 110 to land the fighter.  Britian saved, but so is italian fleet, but now 28 IPC of German transports are sitting at the bottom of the baltic.  If you put them in 114 then they can’t make it to London and I attack the Italian navy.

[Guest]

@Plasticdeathbydice:

@JamesAleman:

Food for thought. I just read 9 pages of this forum, gave up and jumped to the end.

and we are still going at it….this really needs to be cleaned up…

AMEN……TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH

[Latro]

@Imperious:

Germany now has V3!

Actually, I think this version is a very risky/weak one:

Attack SZ106 - good one, no real risk involved

Attack SZ110 - good one, enough subs to soak up the return fire of the expected two round of shooting

Attack SZ111 - risky, not enough firepower for a reliable one round kill and not enough subs to take the damage of two round of return fire … critical air units might be lost

Attack SZ 112 - risky, enough firepower for a reliable one round kill but every return hit will either weaken the Kriegsmarine or destroy a critical air unit (there’s a very real 25% chance of even two return hits!)

The big problem with these opening moves is that the UK has the opportunity to consider the results of these battles and then plan accordingly … which is very bad from a German point of view in this case. Lose too many aircraft (don’t forget the AA that will also add to the casualties) and the UK player will simply buy a stack of infantry, place a small destroyer cordon around the capital to prevent shore bombardement and still take out the Italian Navy. If the Kriegsmarine takes too many hits, the UK can take them out with not too many problems and block any possible invasion … you just traded the Italian for the German Navy and probably moved the first amphibious landings in Europe forward by a few turns.

… and if you somehow manage to play a perfect first round with no critical losses, the UK can still go full-defense and lose nothing critical.

… and there’s also the option of only going for the transport as a previous poster pointed out.

8-)

(PS: Long-time player, incidental lurker and first-time poster … Hi Guys!)

[Latro]

Almost forgot …

So far my favourite opening for Germany has been going for a strong combat oriented Kriegsmarine to put an economic blocade around the UK and delay the landings in Europe by threatening with a major battle in the atlantic. Any Allied IPC’s spent on combat units aren’t used for landings … and there’s always the option of moving back and help with minor landings in the USSR.

Some U-boats at the Normandy coast can also help … range 3 threatens a large portion of the Atlantic and makes it very hard to get close to them without being attacked first.

8-)

[Imperious Leader]

Actually they found a flaw in my plans. Baltic transports are prone to planes reaching.

But alas i have a new solution to still do the job!

V4 ( vengeance weapon #4)

Builds: 1 DD, 3 AP

Attack: SZ 106 with 2 subs ( no more tank and infantry)

Attack: SZ 110 with 2 subs, 2 fighters, 1 Tactical at 4

Attack: SZ 111 with 1 sub, 1 Bomber, 1 tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

Attack SZ 112 with 1 BB, 1 Tactical at 4 and 1 Fighter

all planes used.

IN NCM the CA blocks the CV and DD from Gibraltar in SZ 110 and sits with 1-2 subs.

Germans have 2 fleets:

110 they got 1 CA and 1-2 SS
112 they got 1 BB, 1 DD, 1-2 SS, and 4 AP

UK must kill 112 with 3 fighters or face its downfall.

Problem is Germany can lose that fleet in the exchange and everybody dies.