Weapons Developement?

[Strikers]

I am just wondering if anyone invests in weapons developement? Which powers they choose to invest with, gradually one or two dice at a time, or all at once? Anyone bother at all outside of messing around after you clearly have the advantage?

[ghr2]

I hate tech, so that’s a no from me.

[Gargantua]

If it’s a tech game, I like investing in it early.  Especially as America.

Roll 1 dice a turn, and see what you get.  Nothing like Long Range Aircraft or Heavy Bombers with America on the first turn.

Tech also depends on what your opponent is doing… if you are losing the tech war, it can cause you alot of problems.

Tech in Global should have been like anniversary - with tokens.  Or using a research facility piece (1 dice per piece, per turn, $15 complex)  But they f’d that up… maybe for third edition!

[Witt]

I agree with Garg, in that you must invest in it as the US(and maybe Russia before it is at war).
As an avid Axis player, trying to keep the nasty Americans out of our European war, there is nothing more annoying(depressing?) than have them enter the war, with a tech advantage.
They have the money, spend it.

[knp7765]

We rarely play with techs either. We use the tech tokens from Anniversary so it’s at least not a total loss if you don’t roll a 6. Still, if the game is kind of tight, you really need those extra men, tanks, planes or ships and just can’t afford to spend money on a possible tech roll. Then when you have a lot of money and are crushing your enemies, why bother with it then?

Garg’s idea of allowing each nation a free tech roll each turn seems the best way to get some techs into the game. That or the research facility idea is pretty good.

Another idea is to automatically award techs to certain nations after so many rounds. That can get a lot of techs going and was kind of fun when we did it, but after a while it gets a little tedious looking to see which country has which tech. Plus, after about 6 or 8 rounds, a lot of them will have the same techs so you kind of go back to nobody having any techs because it almost works out the same.

[Gargantua]

I have been toying with allowing some tech advantages at the start (Like each country gets one tech)

Super Subs for Germany, Radar for UK, that kind of thing.

[Tall Paul]

Guys,

––While everyone is different and has there own preferences,…I and my ‘gang’ prefer to NOT allow weapons developement so as to keep the game one of pure strategy on a more level playing field. IMHO either someone is ‘lucky’ enough to develope some improved weapons and terrorises his opponents or if he doesn’t it’s “sour grapes” from him. Just imagine if Anzac with only three dice developed heavy bombers, long range aircraft and go on to eventually annihilate Japan. To my way of thinking it just unbalances things. Like I just said,…no answer is correct, only what each individual prefers.  :-D

“Tall Paul”

[Gargantua]

The problem with that is there are twice as many allied players as axis ones…

[KimRYoung]

One problem is that its not worth spending money for technology you may not get, or getting technology you do not need (i.e. Improved shipyards for Russia).

I do like the idea and the rules for technology though, so I thought it would be a good idea to award technology in a similar manner to National Objectives with the powers who historically gained such technology (for the most part) getting such technology based upon specific conditions.

How about this:

While both sides have victory goals and objectives of national importance granting bonus IPC�s, some powers will gain improved military technology through Research and Development.  This will coincide with them having achieved specific conditions at the beginning of their turn.  Technology will go to those powers that historically developed them to the fullest extent based upon conditions that represent a historical time frame for when they were actually developed.

Use the rules for these technologies from optional game rules. No IPCs are spent and no die rolls are made, if the conditions are met, the designated power gets the technology at the beginning of their turn.

United Kingdom

Advanced Artillery if 2 or more UK troops are in Normandy/Bordeaux.

Radar if the UK loses 2 or more air units in the German combat phase.

Paratroopers if 4 or more US units are in the United Kingdom (London)

Long Range Aircraft if the Allies control all of North Africa (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Tobruk and Egypt) and also Sicily.

Germany

Rockets if the US or UK control Normandy or Rome.

Jets if the UK or US control any original German territory or Normandy, Southern France or Northern Italy.

Increased Factory Production if any German Industrial complex has suffered damage or has been captured.

Improved Mechanized Infantry if there is at least one German tank in Libya or Tobruk.

Soviet Union

Increased Factory Production if any Industrial Complex is capture.

Italy

Improved Mechanized Infantry if there is at least one German tank in Libya or Tobruk.

Japan

Super Submarines if the Japanese do not control any Chinese or Russian territory (this included original Chinese territories that Japan controls at the start of the game such as Manchuria etc.)

United States

Paratroopers if 4 or more US units are in the United Kingdom (London)

Long Range Aircraft if the Allies control all of North Africa (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Tobruk and Egypt) and Sicily.

Improve Shipyards if the US loses a capital ship (Battleship or Aircraft Carrier) in the Japanese combat phase.

War Bonds if the US controls the Palau, Marshall and Caroline Islands.

Heavy Bombers if the US controls the Marianas and either Iwo Jima, Okinawa or Formosa.

The conditions correspond to the approximate time frame historically when these conditions occurred and the technologey went into use.

I think you wont need any bids with these as they favor the Allies. Please offer your opinions.

Kim

[Makoshark13]

I like the idea, but if the axis is winning, virtually all development stops. I think that it shouldn’t be so dependent on what the other power is doing. If the allies hasn’t been winning, technology still would have developed.

[Gargantua]

The house rules for Research Facilities had the best R&D program.

Basically - all nations except china start with a research facility in their capital. Each facility gives a die roll  (UK gets 2 facilities, one in India, one in London,  USA starts with two one in east one in west USA).  Research facilities can be captured.

No one can roll for tech until at war.

What this does is, allows the germans to get a slight edge at the beginning, but by the time the USA is in the war, they’ll probably have 3 or 4 facilities, pounding research dice out each turn, and the facilities become prime targets for SBR.

Better, if you capture a facility, you can steal one of your opponents technologies.

[Gargantua]

Or… follow a turn schedule for research:

Each nation has a set schedule of technology they get for each tree.

For every turn you have been paying $5 to the bank, you move up your schedule and get X technologies at X time.

Also Because there are two schedules, you can pay $10 a turn to move your token through the schedule… but what a burden!

[Cow]

I roll tech before the game ending battle. I hate rolling tech early.

Japan and USA about to have their big pacific clash? TECH ROLL.

Germany about to attack Russia? TECH ROLL.
~
When I roll tech, I spend as much money as I can on it, because improved arty for moscow can totally change the outcome of that. Same thing with jet fighters in the pacific showdown.

I do it for the game deciding battle.

[toblerone77]

I always thought one die each turn for everyone was cool. Or one tech roll guaranteed before the game starts for each nation.

[Sergente_nella_neve]

My two cents:

Giving a free roll per turn for EACH Power every (at least) 20 IPC of production: this means an average of 1 roll for UK and URSS and (maybe) Italy, 2 rolls for Germany and Japan and 3 rolls for USA. This for every round starting, for example, after the 4th or later.

[KimRYoung]

@Makoshark13:

I like the idea, but if the axis is winning, virtually all development stops. I think that it shouldn’t be so dependent on what the other power is doing. If the allies hasn’t been winning, technology still would have developed.

If you look at the conditions I put forward for each technology, many of them become on going game balancers, though you are right that some (mostly for the Allies) require them to be winning.

UK can get radar early pretty easy and help hold London and India. US likely gets improved shipyards. Germany will get Jets and Rockets if its getting pressure from the US and UK.

Its not a perfect idea so I’m open to a different way, but I really don’t like the idea of it being chance to even get them, or chance as to what you get. I also don’t like the idea that EVERY power has equal chance to get any possible tech.

I mean really, should Italy be getting heavy bombers and jets? Rockets for the ANZACs? Improved mech infantry for Japan? I would prefer to have the powers that historically developed the technology (or at least were at the for-front) be getting it. I would rather it work like the National Objective bonus that only certain powers get the bonus for.

Just giving every power a free shot at it really puts to much luck into the game that some think has to much luck already.

Also, tying tech to IPC cost isn’t quit right either as in reality some of it was being produced when the historical power was LOSING the war (German rockets and jets).

I would be interested in any approach that is not luck based or money based.

Kim

[Derek]

I really like research facilities
I’m guessing they have similar health and rules in regards to SBR as do naval/air bases?
1 per territory maximum?
Can build anywhere?
Can they be built before a power is at war? (USA would plop down a few on its first turn so that as soon as its at war it rolls the dice)

[Gargantua]

@Uncrustable:

I really like research facilities
I’m guessing they have similar health and rules in regards to SBR as do naval/air bases?
1 per territory maximum?
Can build anywhere?
Can they be built before a power is at war? (USA would plop down a few on its first turn so that as soon as its at war it rolls the dice)

Exactly the same as any other facility, and like any other facility, can be built before the war.

[gamerman01]

@Strikers:

I am just wondering if anyone invests in weapons developement?

I do

Which powers they choose to invest with,

I usually play Allies, so USSR, USA, UK

gradually one or two dice at a time, or all at once?

Usually gradually, usually 1 die at a time.  Almost always roll one with USA.

Anyone bother at all outside of messing around after you clearly have the advantage?

Absolutely - this is one of the best times to roll tech.  When I get ahead and know I’m going to win, it is not risky to buy tech because I can afford to lose the money.  But when I hit them, it’s more fun for me AND I can win faster.  This is actually one of the main reasons I like to play with tech in games.  It helps the player who is ahead to win faster and end the misery quicker.  This was more true in AA50 than in G40.  AA50 games could drag on for a long time without tech.

Garg mentioned early LRA or heavy bombers is amazing with the USA, and he is right.  Other terrific techs:

LRA for anybody

German/Italian rockets
German/Italian paratroopers
German increased production
German jets
German radar
German heavy bombers
German super subs on G1 (and could be good at other times as well)

Russian paratroopers
Russian advanced artillery
Russian radar (would be rare to roll this chart tho - but maybe for a desperate defense when the big attack on Moscow is imminent?)

et cetera

Rockets are particularly amazing because of their ability to go 4 spaces and to hit bases.  Note that you may target the same facility with more than one rocket attack at a time (a subtle and unheralded change between the time of OOB and 2nd edition).
I’m in a game where my Gibraltar naval base was disabled 3 straight times by the Germans, and so the Americans could not go 3 spaces from 91/92 on their turn.
Since there are interceptor rules now, and because there is AA defense 100% of the time, SBR’s are riskier and more difficult than ever before, on average.  Rockets present a 100% chance of hitting a facility every single turn.  It takes 3 damage to disable a base, but again, you can target a base with more than one rocket.  If you target a base with 2 rockets, there is only 1/36 chance that it will not be disabled (snake eyes).

People who say tech is a waste of money often overlook various considerations/factors.  One of them is that once you get a couple of techs, you have a much greater chance of knowing what tech you will get next.  Of course, once you have 5 techs on a chart, you know for sure what your next one will be.  We call that “buying” (LRA, heavy bombers, whatever it is) even though of course there is a chance you will not roll a 6.
Another is the surprise factor.  Especially if you have not been buying it.  Like Cow said, a good time for a big tech buy is right before a big attack.  Your opponent is probably not prepared for the LRA or jets or Heavy bombers or paratroopers, and you get to use them immediately, before your opponent can do anything about it.  This can be a game winner.  Tech is not for the faint of heart.  
Tech adds a whole ‘nother dimension to the game, including a lot more strategy.  I simply don’t agree with players who say tech is all about luck.  If tech is all about luck, then A&A is all about luck, because every time you attack enemy units you have to roll dice and get the right results to win the battle.  The only thing that is for sure is that if you don’t invest any IPC’s in tech…… well… you ain’t gettin’ any breakthroughs.

[theROCmonster]

There are two problems with tech.

1. You pay 5 IPC’s worth of income for a 16.67% chance to hit.
2. There is only a 16.67% chance of getting what you really wanted after you hit the first 16.67% to get to the tech tree.

So 1/6 * 1/6= 1/36 chance of hitting what you really wanted.