What an excellent report, you are a grear story teller!
Global 2nd edition Q+A ( AAG40.2)
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Once a transport unloads anything, any time during the turn, it is DONE for the rest of the power’s turn - can’t move, can’t unload
Do the rules say this and if so, where?
You can do it. Subs only stop amphibious assaults from the sea zone that the sub is in. So only a sub in Z3 stops an unescorted amphibious assault on Soviet Far East
That’s my read as well but it appears to be a loophole. The sub should block an unescorted transport IMO.
One question. Are you allowed to load a transport in a hostile sea zone with a combat and then unload in the same or a different sea zone? I can’t find where this is covered in the rules.
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Page 33, 3rd para. down on the right side
“Whenever a transport offloads, it can’t move again that turn”4th para. down
“… once it offloads, it can’t move, load, or unload again that turn”
“That’s my read as well”
It’s not my personal interpretation. It’s the rule. I’ve been on this site for years and seen Krieghund’s answers for years to all these questions, and that is why I’m a rules deputy - because I know the rules very, very well.
I know for a FACT that submarines only block unescorted transports from conducting amphibious assault only when the sub is in the destination, last sea zone, the one the transport would want to offload from. It’s not just my “interpretation”. If you want to play the way that makes sense to you, you house rule it and make sure your opponent agrees. Then you can have it the way “your opinion” is, but the rules are often not the way we think it might be.A hostile zone is a zone that has an enemy surface warship in it. You can not load up transports in that zone with a combat move. There is one exception, and that is if you JUST now declared war on the power that owns the warship(s) and you were not at war with them before your turn.
I think you need to carefully read page 33 on transports, and then re-read it. And maybe read it again.
Bottom left of the page, “loading and offloading” first sentence says you can load in FRIENDLY sea zones. Friendly sea zones are clearly defined in the rulebook as zones that don’t contain any surface warships of powers with which you are at war. Or in other words, have no more than enemy submarines and/or transports in them.Page 12, blue box, first paragraph contains the exception to the rule that transports can’t load ground units from hostile sea zones, which I described above.
I know I probably sound impatient - I had a frustrating evening. But these are all the answers you want, and chapters and verses.
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I need clarification please:
Do retreating aircraft only get to move 1 space, to the same space as land units, or do they get the finish there remaining move totals?
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Retreating aircraft stay in the territory/sea zone the battle was in–they need to use their remaining movement points to land in the noncombat phase, just as if they had won the battle. If they have none left (fighters/tacs expecting to win the battle with a carrier, for example), then the plane(s) will be removed at the end of the noncombat phase.
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I need clarification please:
Do retreating aircraft only get to move 1 space, to the same space as land units, or do they get the finish there remaining move totals?
If you are attacking and retreat they finish their remaining movement. The move one space rule comes in when you are defending and lose the landing field you started from, either a carrier or an airbase you scrambled from. The latter is quite difficult to occur, but possible if you scramble into a sea zone while the territory is attacked from a different sea zone or land.
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Since some people only check the FAQ, I thought I would post this here also.
I am struggling with some the game rules regarding subs. I want to make sure I read this right because the rulebook does not say immediately remove them as it does in other areas.
Please let me know if each of these situations is either correct or incorrect. If it is incorrect please let me know the right rule.
1. If a sub attacks and hit a surface ship (not a capital ship) with a surprise strike, that unit is removed without a chance to fire back.
2. If a sub hits another sub with a surprise strike that sub still gets to surprise strike back before it is removed
3. If a sub opts not to submerge and gets a hit with a surprise strike on defense the attackers takes off a surface ship (not capital ship) with out that unit firing back.
4. Defending subs have option to submerge before attacking subs can surprise attack
Thanks for the help with each of these situations.
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1 & 4 - yes
2 - providing the attacker doesn’t have a destroyer and the defending didn’t submerge
3 - Only if the attacker elects to take the hit on the surface ship. If they have subs, they can take it on them even though they’ve already fired. -
1. If a sub attacks and hit a surface ship (not a capital ship) with a surprise strike, that unit is removed without a chance to fire back.
So, cruisers?
If there is a destroyer on defense, of course, sub special abilities are nullified.
Subs can annihilate any non-destroyer ship with a surprise strike (of course a capital ship has to already be damaged), including subs (that is if the attacking sub is accompanied by a destroyer which would nullify defending subs’ special abilities)
Examples:- 2+ subs attack a battleship and score 2+ hits. Battleship is sunk by surprise strike and cannot fire back
- Sub + destroyer attack a sub and attacking sub hits. Defending sub is removed by surprise strike and cannot fire back (abilities nullified by destroyer). If the destroyer hits, then the defending sub DOES fire back, of course, because only submarines have surprise strike capability
- 2+ subs attack damaged battleship and damaged carrier. Each sub hit will destroy one of these capital ships by surprise strike and the hit unit does not fire back
2. If a sub hits another sub with a surprise strike that sub still gets to surprise strike back before it is removed
Only when no destroyers are present on either side, then yes (assuming neither side submerged, as simon33 said)
3. If a sub opts not to submerge and gets a hit with a surprise strike on defense the attackers takes off a surface ship (not capital ship) with out that unit firing back.
It’s not exactly clear to me what you’re asking, so I’ll cover it this way:
2 large fleets with every type of naval unit except destroyers are battling
Page 19 explains: Attacking subs roll. Defender chooses sea unit casualties (could be submarines, but not transports unless only transports are left) and “moves it behind the casualty strip”. Then defending subs roll (rulebook doesn’t appear to be clear here, but this includes subs that were chosen as casualties to attacking subs) and the attacker chooses sea unit casualties (could be submarines, but not transports unless only transports remain).So it sounds like you need to get this “surface ship” thing out of your head :-) It’s just that an undamaged battleship or carrier, or a cruiser are the only ships that can get blasted by a surprise strike without being able to return fire, IF they are chosen. (Subs can be sunk by surprise strike without a chance to fire back, too, if they are attacked by a force that includes a destroyer)
4. Defending subs have option to submerge before attacking subs can surprise attack
Right, as per page 19. Attacking and defending subs choose to submerge or fire, and this occurs before any firing (rolling) takes place
Feel free to ask follow up questions - I’m not sure all of this will be crystal clear with you yet
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I have a question about the following rule in this video explanation…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFbqKD9mghc&lc=z13hzhsitrj3er5pt04cep4r3oqrt1dqdkw0k
If after the first round of combat in which the 3 Italy fighters scramble, the Italians have 1 fighter remaining and the Americans have lost both the aircraft carrier and fighter, can the Americans retreat the transports and subs?
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The transports can definitely retreat. Contrary to your comment I saw on youtube, the transports are NOT automatically sunk. That is ONLY when they are on defense. I need to check on the submarine issue - be right back
I do know the submarines can retreat with the transports because the transports established a retreat route even though the subs never moved. Since you can retreat everything to a zone that at least one unit passed through (the transports established that)I want to make sure the subs are actually involved in the battle though -
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I’m not sure it’s addressed in the rulebook. I just double checked in a few places in the rulebook though, so not sure. Let’s just have Krieghund handle this one.
Because there are only defending fighters, I’m not sure that’s considered “participating in combat” for the subs. If it is, then the subs could have been moved away from Z91 to avoid a combat situation (one of the 4 exceptions on page 13). If it is a combat situation for the subs and they did not move away in the combat movement phase, then they can retreat with the transports to a zone the transports came from. If it is not considered a combat situation for the subs, then they can move in the non-combat movement phase.
I think you need Krieghund to tell you whether this is considered a combat situation for the subs or not, unless someone else can find it clearly in the rulebook somewhere.
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Thank you very much for your research, the reason I made the video was because I thought it was interesting that the subs that began their turn in that seazone, couldn’t move during non-combat because a battle was created there in a phase prior to non combat movement. Therefore I understood from this forum that the subs were now part of the battle whether they wanted to or not, and regardless of the fact that they can’t fire at air units making them useless in a battle they are forced to participate in. However, I never thought about how this impacts retreating but I suppose it makes sense to me now that even if the transports were the last units standing against a lone fighter, they would still have the ability to retreat as long as at least 1 combat round was complete (I will for sure make a correction to that question on my comments board). So like you were saying, the only thing left to figure out is, because the subs began their turn in that seazone… can they retreat? and in what direction?
So this is what I want to write back, but it still feels wrong… is this comment correct?
Correction, as long as at least 1 combat round is complete… attacking units can retreat even if transports are the last units remaining. I’m still getting info on this scenario, I’ll get back to you when I learn more. -
Some of my thoughts regarding this interesting subject:
Because there are only defending fighters, I’m not sure that’s considered “participating in combat” for the subs. If it is, then the subs could have been moved away from Z91 to avoid a combat situation (one of the 4 exceptions on page 13)….
Remember that SZ 91 is considered as friendly until the US have finished their combat moves. It’s only the scramble (following immediately after the combat moves) of the Italian fighters that leads to a sea battle. So the “Sea Units starting in Hostile sea Zones”-exceptions do not match. Just the possibility of an eventual scramble does not make a seazone hostile. The attacker may not change any combat movements after the defender has scrambled.
I think you need Krieghund to tell you whether this is considered a combat situation for the subs or not, unless someone else can find it clearly in the rulebook somewhere.
Here it is:
@rulebook:
Amphibious Assault Sequence
1. Sea combat
…
Step 1. Sea Combat
If there are defending surface warships and/or scrambled
air units, sea combat occurs. If there are only defending
submarines and/or transports, the attacker can choose to
ignore those units or conduct sea combat.
If sea combat occurs, all attacking and defending sea
units present must participate in the battle. (Even if the
attacker chose to ignore defending submarines and/or
transports, they will still be involved in the battle if the
defender scrambles air units and forces a sea battle.)together with
@rulebook:
Can’t Hit Air Units: When attacking or defending,
submarines can’t hit air units.
Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
in the battle.So, yes, the subs are part of the sea battle, they are considered as attacking, but they can’t hit the fighters and cannot be hit by the fighters.
And yes, the subs have to (not may) retreat together with the transports (on the transport route):
@rulebook:
Condition B: Attacker Retreats
The attacker (never the defender) can retreat during this
step. Move all attacking land and sea units in that combat
that are on the battle strip to a single adjacent friendly
space from which at least 1 of the attacking land or sea
units moved. In the case of sea units, that space must
have been friendly at the start of the turn. All such units
must retreat together to the same territory or sea zone,
regardless of where they came from.HTH :-)
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Very impressed by the research - couple thoughts in return -
Assuming you are right about the subs being part of the combat (I know it says “all”, but I am not fully convinced that it is intended to include submarines until I hear from Krieghund. I’ve seen stranger things), it would be possible for the subs to stay in Z91 if they submerge before the retreat is done. Since the defender had only planes, if the attacker wanted the subs to stay in Z91 he would of course submerge them immediately in the first round.
YG, attacking transports that are still alive after a round of combat can always retreat if they came from another zone during the combat movement. Auto-kill is only for transports that are on defense, because the end result is inevitable. It is possible, therefore, for some transports to get destroyed when attacking (of course they are taken off last), and some to survive and retreat. This is true in all amphibious assault situations where the transport has established a retreat route (it is possible that a transport never moved and is trapped)
P@nther, if you are right then the only way to get those subs out of Z91 for this attacker would be to attack an enemy ship somewhere else. With tons of respect to you, I think we need Krieghund to weigh in on whether step 1, sea combat, is intended to include the submarines in this situation.
Tough questions, YG! Bravo
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@P@nther:
Because there are only defending fighters, I’m not sure that’s considered “participating in combat” for the subs. If it is, then the subs could have been moved away from Z91 to avoid a combat situation (one of the 4 exceptions on page 13)….
Remember that SZ 91 is considered as friendly until the US have finished their combat moves. It’s only the scramble (following immediately after the combat moves) of the Italian fighters that leads to a sea battle. So the “Sea Units starting in Hostile sea Zones”-exceptions do not match. Just the possibility of an eventual scramble does not make a seazone hostile. The attacker may not change any combat movements after the defender has scrambled.
The exception does match. Read exception #2 more closely. It says you can anticipate scrambles to amphibious assaults. So the subs could definitely have moved in the combat movement phase to avoid this combat
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@Young:
I have a question about the following rule in this video explanation…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFbqKD9mghc&lc=z13hzhsitrj3er5pt04cep4r3oqrt1dqdkw0k
If after the first round of combat in which the 3 Italy fighters scramble, the Italians have 1 fighter remaining and the Americans have lost both the aircraft carrier and fighter, can the Americans retreat the transports and subs?
The transports can definitely retreat. Contrary to your comment I saw on youtube, the transports are NOT automatically sunk. That is ONLY when they are on defense. I need to check on the submarine issue - be right back
I do know the submarines can retreat with the transports because the transports established a retreat route even though the subs never moved. Since you can retreat everything to a zone that at least one unit passed through (the transports established that)I want to make sure the subs are actually involved in the battle though -
I’m not sure it’s addressed in the rulebook. I just double checked in a few places in the rulebook though, so not sure. Let’s just have Krieghund handle this one.
Because there are only defending fighters, I’m not sure that’s considered “participating in combat” for the subs. If it is, then the subs could have been moved away from Z91 to avoid a combat situation (one of the 4 exceptions on page 13). If it is a combat situation for the subs and they did not move away in the combat movement phase, then they can retreat with the transports to a zone the transports came from. If it is not considered a combat situation for the subs, then they can move in the non-combat movement phase.
I think you need Krieghund to tell you whether this is considered a combat situation for the subs or not, unless someone else can find it clearly in the rulebook somewhere.
@Young:
Thank you very much for your research, the reason I made the video was because I thought it was interesting that the subs that began their turn in that seazone, couldn’t move during non-combat because a battle was created there in a phase prior to non combat movement. Therefore I understood from this forum that the subs were now part of the battle whether they wanted to or not, and regardless of the fact that they can’t fire at air units making them useless in a battle they are forced to participate in. However, I never thought about how this impacts retreating but I suppose it makes sense to me now that even if the transports were the last units standing against a lone fighter, they would still have the ability to retreat as long as at least 1 combat round was complete (I will for sure make a correction to that question on my comments board). So like you were saying, the only thing left to figure out is, because the subs began their turn in that seazone… can they retreat? and in what direction?
So this is what I want to write back, but it still feels wrong… is this comment correct?
Correction, as long as at least 1 combat round is complete… attacking units can retreat even if transports are the last units remaining. I’m still getting info on this scenario, I’ll get back to you when I learn more.@P@nther:
Some of my thoughts regarding this interesting subject:
Because there are only defending fighters, I’m not sure that’s considered “participating in combat” for the subs. If it is, then the subs could have been moved away from Z91 to avoid a combat situation (one of the 4 exceptions on page 13)….
Remember that SZ 91 is considered as friendly until the US have finished their combat moves. It’s only the scramble (following immediately after the combat moves) of the Italian fighters that leads to a sea battle. So the “Sea Units starting in Hostile sea Zones”-exceptions do not match. Just the possibility of an eventual scramble does not make a seazone hostile. The attacker may not change any combat movements after the defender has scrambled.
I think you need Krieghund to tell you whether this is considered a combat situation for the subs or not, unless someone else can find it clearly in the rulebook somewhere.
Here it is:
@rulebook:
Amphibious Assault Sequence
1. Sea combat
…
Step 1. Sea Combat
If there are defending surface warships and/or scrambled
air units, sea combat occurs. If there are only defending
submarines and/or transports, the attacker can choose to
ignore those units or conduct sea combat.
If sea combat occurs, all attacking and defending sea
units present must participate in the battle. (Even if the
attacker chose to ignore defending submarines and/or
transports, they will still be involved in the battle if the
defender scrambles air units and forces a sea battle.)together with
@rulebook:
Can’t Hit Air Units: When attacking or defending,
submarines can’t hit air units.
Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
in the battle.So, yes, the subs are part of the sea battle, they are considered as attacking, but they can’t hit the fighters and cannot be hit by the fighters.
And yes, the subs have to (not may) retreat together with the transports (on the transport route):
@rulebook:
Condition B: Attacker Retreats
The attacker (never the defender) can retreat during this
step. Move all attacking land and sea units in that combat
that are on the battle strip to a single adjacent friendly
space from which at least 1 of the attacking land or sea
units moved. In the case of sea units, that space must
have been friendly at the start of the turn. All such units
must retreat together to the same territory or sea zone,
regardless of where they came from.HTH :-)
Very impressed by the research - couple thoughts in return -
Assuming you are right about the subs being part of the combat (I know it says “all”, but I am not fully convinced that it is intended to include submarines until I hear from Krieghund. I’ve seen stranger things), it would be possible for the subs to stay in Z91 if they submerge before the retreat is done. Since the defender had only planes, if the attacker wanted the subs to stay in Z91 he would of course submerge them immediately in the first round.
YG, attacking transports that are still alive after a round of combat can always retreat if they came from another zone during the combat movement. Auto-kill is only for transports that are on defense, because the end result is inevitable. It is possible, therefore, for some transports to get destroyed when attacking (of course they are taken off last), and some to survive and retreat. This is true in all amphibious assault situations where the transport has established a retreat route (it is possible that a transport never moved and is trapped)
P@nther, if you are right then the only way to get those subs out of Z91 for this attacker would be to attack an enemy ship somewhere else. Something isn’t right, here. With tons of respect to you, I think we need Krieghund to weigh in on whether step 1, sea combat, is intended to include the submarines in this situation.
Tough questions, YG! Bravo
@P@nther:
Because there are only defending fighters, I’m not sure that’s considered “participating in combat” for the subs. If it is, then the subs could have been moved away from Z91 to avoid a combat situation (one of the 4 exceptions on page 13)….
Remember that SZ 91 is considered as friendly until the US have finished their combat moves. It’s only the scramble (following immediately after the combat moves) of the Italian fighters that leads to a sea battle. So the “Sea Units starting in Hostile sea Zones”-exceptions do not match. Just the possibility of an eventual scramble does not make a seazone hostile. The attacker may not change any combat movements after the defender has scrambled.
The exception does match. Read exception #2 more closely. It says you can anticipate scrambles to amphibious assaults. So the subs could definitely have moved in the combat movement phase to avoid this combat
Awesome collaboration guys, looks like I’ll have to make a new video for this subject :|
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P@nther is right, except for the last bit that Gamerman contradicted.
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Great clarification here. I don’t think this has ever happened for me though.
It’s pretty hard to find something not already considered in the rules!
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Awesome discussion, indeed. :-)
Thank you
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YG - for bringing it up
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Gamerman01 - for bringing me back to the correct path concerning that “escape SZ-issue”
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Krieghund - for the confirmation
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I forgot. Hence asking. If Italy declares war upon Russia and invades Eastern Poland and captures it, can Germany move troops into that territory during the NCM phase?
This is what is in the pdf file:
“If your power isn’t at war, you can’t move your units into territories belonging to another friendly power or a friendly neutral”Germany is at war with the UK at this point, but not with Russia.
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